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15 Oct 2009

Why Debbie? (Because we’ve all racked our brains trying to make sense of it!)

Debbie Rowe, Fan Fiction, Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson Debbie Rowe Lisa Marie Presley 98 Comments


This story picks up where Baby Be Mine left off, so you might want to read that first if you have not already.

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98 Responses to “Why Debbie? (Because we’ve all racked our brains trying to make sense of it!)”

  1. Sabine says:

    Cherry: One of the girls I met through Michael was born in Nepal and then adopted by a German couple when she was just a baby I think. We talked about Michael and his children and biological parents vs. the people who raise you and so on. She said she is not angry or feels rejected because she felt loved and supported by the only people she ever called parents. So I don’t know if it’s necessarily that way for any child. I mean, I didn’t check any statistics or psychological studies about that…

    It may not be true that all children feel rejected and abandoned by the parent that doesn't stay/take care of them but it is certainly true for many children -- that was my only point.

    Cherry:My parents divorced when I was 7 or 8 years old and my sister 4 or 5 and we stayed with our mother. My father has been in a lot of trouble all his life so for long periods of time he wasn’t even able to see us every second weekend of the month and I felt kind of left alone by him because he just couldn’t get his life back on track, he gambled, drank and had debts up to here. He became completely disfunctional as a father and as a member of society really. I asked him once why, if nothing else was, my sister and I weren’t motivation enough for him to stop and all he said was I don’t know. So sometimes parents can cause more damage for having been there and then leaving you because of their disfunctional lifestyle than if they had never been there in the first place and instead another person who loves you took care of you, like my mom did for me and Michael did for his children.

    Wow, I'm sorry you had to endure that. That's called emotional abandonment by the way. A parent can be in the home and still emotionally abandon their child - or be semi-present in their child's life and still cause emotional abandonment. Some people argue that the parent who comes in and out of the child's life is worst than the parent who just leaves for good, because the first dangles the carrot of hope to the child that one day he/she might stay.

    Cherry: Ok, what I meant was this: That she made the offer to him after he told her how heartbroken he was about the fact that Lisa didn’t want to have his children is her action thus her responsabilty.

    Yeahhhhh but it sounds like you're trying to justify it -- like you're saying here is the good reason that Debbie made the offer -- because Michael told her he was heartbroken, as if it's kind of like his fault and he is responsible for the offer because he "made" her feel sorry for him.

    Cherry:Yes, this happened while he was technically still married to Lisa

    He wasn't "technically" still married -- he was married. Shamone now :lol:

    Cherry:and she probably wasn’t only thinking of him and his happiness.

    Debbie OBVIOUSLY wasn't thinking of Michael and his over all well being and happiness, no matter what she says.

    Cherry:But it is not her responsabilty that Michael took up the offer! I mean if I offer you millions of dollars for you to let me publish your stories then I’m bad for offering this to you, for wanting to take somebody else’s intellectual property and sell it as my own but it would be your decision to say yes or no to this offer and thus your responsabilty for that decision and for the consequences it has in your life.

    Using your analogy, without your offer to steal my stories, there is nothing to accept, no consequences to suffer. So the problem begins w/ the offer.

    Sabine:Well, I read that sentence as you trying to hold him responsible for Debbie’s actions.

    Cherry:Not at all, I’m holding him responsbile for HIS actions.

    But why though? I'm curious. Why are you trying to get Michael, who isn't here, to accept responsibility?
    I mean, what exactly did Michael DO TO Debbie? Give her a whole bunch of money so that she's set for life and never has to work another day? Marry her? Give her two beautiful children that she doesn't want? Take care of them every day of their life, so that she never had to lift a finger or worry? Michael' didn't do anything to Debbie that he should be held responsible for. Michael made a mistake in his own life and he paid the consequences ten times over.

    Sabine: but Michael was surrounded by manipulative, dishonest users who wanted to extort things from him.They must take responsibility for that behavior — he can’t do it for them.

    Cherry: Yes he was and of course they have to take responsabilty for what they did to him but he should have gotten rid of them once he saw that they were manipulative and dishonest,

    The reason people don't get rid of people who are being manipulative and dishonest is because THEY ARE BEING MANIPULATIVE AND DISHONEST.

    :lol: If they said, Hey, um, you know, I'm a horrible person; I'm lying to you and trying to use you. Any sane person would get rid of them!!! They never say that.

    Cherry: He should have surrounded himself with people that were good for him and that is also a decision that you take yourself.

    How do you know who is honest and good, when you're surrounded by people who are lying to you and trying to use you?

    If the answer is he "should have known" then I'll ask another question. How do you know who a liar is and who a user is, when your own parents used you and lied to you and said they weren't using you, but just giving you what you want -- when you were never given a choice?

    How does a child who was never taught trust learn how to trust and who to trust?

    They don't.

    Cherry:You can consiously decide to eliminate people who bring drama and bad energy from your life, it’s one of the things you have to do in order to be happy. Instead, he sometimes got rid of people who truly wanted to help him and if helping entailed telling him something he didn’t want to hear he withdrew from them.

    Michael was programmed to gravitate to untrustworthy people and they were attracted to him for that reason. Michael needed help to unlearn what he was taught as a child. It took him 18 + years to get that way, he needed that much time and maybe more to unlearn it. Some people live their whole life and never learn it. It's a very hard lesson to learn.

    Sabine:It would have been hard as hell for him to go to her if she WASN’T THERE and if she hadn’t opened her BIG MOUTH and offered her womb up to him for a price!

    Cherry:Well, he must have gone to her first and told her about Lisa, their problems and his desperation. Had he not done that, Debbie wouldn’t have know that there was a situation. So I’m not saying he went to Debbie because he had their deal in mind from the beginning but had Michael not spoken about his martial problems to her in the first place I don’t think Debbie would have offered what she did, I don’t think she was that bold. I mean, I don’t know her at all but just from my impression of her…

    So therefore what? Michael is responsible for the offer that Debbie made to him of her womb? :lol: Come on now, Debbie has to own what she did. I don't care what Michael said, how he said it, Debbie chose to make that offer, and it's Debbie's responsibility 150% percent.

    Sabine: It's her fault that she was there, in between them and that she offered.
    Cherry:Well, this sounds as if you said she was the reason for their divorce.

    I don't know about you, but I do not see the word "divorce" anywhere in my sentence. I didn't say that :wink:

    Cherry:But it’s true that technically they were still married when Michael told Lisa if she wasn’t going to have his children, Debbie would.

    :silly: :cheerful: They were not still "technically" married. They were still married, plain and simple.

    Cherry:But I mean, as a husband he could or should have said to Debbie, look, I’m still trying to sort this out with my wife and I can’t do this to her but thanks for offering, bla bla.

    And no matter what Michael said Debbie, if she was a functional, healthy friend could have said, "Michael I truly wish you are able to work this out with Lisa, and anyway I can help you work out the trouble in your marriage, please just ask; if you cannot resolve this with Lisa, and YOU decide to end the relationship, then I'm here to support you and be a friend to you. A true friend would have said, you need to find a person who you can build a relationship with, one that will honor their words and take your desires and wishes into consideration, and if you need me to talk or for moral support I'm here for you.

    Not Oh! Oh! Oh!!!!! HERE USE ME! :sick:

    Cherry:So Michael is responsable for letting Lisa in on the news like that, for kind blackmailing her, like “if you don’t do it, somebody else will”. Of course that only drove them further apart and Debbie is part of this triangle but she came into picture long after the damage had been done in Lisa and Michael’s relationship imo.

    Lisa was trying to manipulate Michael just as much as Debbie was. She has her own self to blame for being in that predicament and she, too, can't blame Michael. The common response to anyone with any self respect who someone is trying to control is to push back and let that person know that they cannot be controlled
    Lisa:I don't care what I said to you Michael, I will NOT have sex with you or a baby until I think it's time, even though we're in a marriage and we should make decisions together, you just wait
    Michael: I don't need you to have a baby Lisa. I can have a baby with someone else.

    It's not fun or nice, but that's what happens when people try to control each other.

    Cherry:Offering a still married man to carry out his children because his wife wouldn’t is admittedly very brazen but it all wouldn’t have happened had Michael said no to her.

    :lol: :lol: No, no, it wouldn't have happened, not in a million years if Debbie had never offered. That's where is began!!! It's not up to Michael to police Debbie: Hey now Debbie, that's nice offer but no thanks - it's up to Debbie to police herself and not offer herself to be used. I think what she did is down right scandalous. Who ever heard of such a thing!?!!?! Oh, your wife doesn't want to get pregnant now? Well, I'll do it for you, if you want :w00t:

    WTF!!!!!! :wassat: :sad:

    :biggrin: :silly:

    Cherry:Now, as I tried to explain a few days ago he had his reasons for taking up her offer, I understand why he did it but but the fact that he did was his responsabilty alone. Even Karen said that sometimes, Michael behaved like a man who just did things withouth thinking about the outcome, without acknowliding the consequences and responsabilites that come with that decision.

    I don't understand why there's a need to make Michael, who isn't here, take responsibility for this? Did he ever NOT take responsibility? Did I miss something?
    Did Michael abandon his children and not take care of them?
    Did he deny they were his kids?
    Did he refuse to pay Debbie the money she demanded over and over?

    Did he do one irresponsible thing when it came to having those children?

    The ONLY irresponsible thing he did was having them with Debbie, IMO, that's it. Otherwise, Michael was responsible in every way, shape and form. He was the best father.

    Sabine: Well, as I’ve tried to describe, trying to make Michael responsible for the manipulation of others is just not fair. Debbie is a big girl, she can own being an enabler and a user.She won’t break.

    Cherry: But that’s exactly my point, all I want is to make him responsible for HIS decisions.

    But why? I don't get it, Cherry. Maybe you can help me understand? Why is it so important that Michael be responsible for this decision he made to accept Debbie's offer?

    Cherry: He was manipulated in his life concering money and shows by his management and family but nobody had the power to manipulate him on an issue like having children imo because that was so personal and so important to him, I really believe that.

    I don't see how you can believe Michael was not manipulated when he was desperate and vulnerable at the time; he felt betrayed and used and instead of Debbie supporting him and giving him good advice, she used him, offer her own self to be used therefore enabling him and interfered in his marriage. Enabling, using, interfering, these are all attributes of manipulation and dysfunction.
    It's not like Michael made a sound decision in his right mind. Yes, he made the decision but he was in a bad place and his "friend"screwed him -- literally.

  2. CherryLeigh says:

    Sabine, I really don't understand why you can't at least ackknowledge that I SAID to make the offer was Debbie's decision, action and thus her responsabilty and that it was Michael's decision, action and responsability to take it up, it's applying the same principle to both Michael and Debbie, nothing more or less.

    Yes, the offer came from Debbie and I already said that this was very brazen of her, offering that to him when he was still married but I can also just as well imagine that she felt sorry for him for being so desperate. I can imagine that he let out all of his desperation about Lisa in front of Debbie and that made her feel special, more special that she was to Michael though. It maybe even gave her a sense of power because he had revealed a secret to her and she felt special and needed with the thought that SHE could be the one to help him.

    But the fact the he came to her and poured his heart out about the problem of his marriage could also be seen as a way for Michael to indirectly ask Debbie for being a surrogate mother to his children, we cannot completely ignore that possibility either just because we don't like it.

    Michael is not here anymore so technically all of this doesn't matter now but I think about him everyday and sometimes I have phases where I think God, it didn't have to be that way, he didn't have to be that unhappy or whatever. What I just want to do is to get a way from the image of Michael - the eternal victim of everybody and everything around him. I just don't want to feel sorry for him all the time and for everything that went wrong because it's okay to be critical sometimes. I think that you for example try to explain everything in a way that shows Michael as the victim who had no choice, no responsabilty, that it was always the other person in his life but for me it doesn't work that way. If taking responsibiltiy for your actions applies to everybody else in the world than he should not be excluded.

    I understand why he had children the way he did and why he dealt with uncomfortable situations the way he did, I just say that it COULD have been different and I try to see/understand how it could have been different and why eventually it wasn't and while doing that I conclude that I don't think Michael was the victim all the time but also the originator of his own unhappiness. He took decisions, accepted things and rejected others, accepted people and rejected others and whatever pain that caused him in his life is in my opinion not to always just be explained with the argument that oh, he was used, he had no choice and so on. He had the choice for example to start taking prescription drugs and almost die from it although he had small children or let Janet, Randy and his mother help him instead of to throw a tantrum, just to name one example.

    And about the dishonest and disfuntional people in his life...I think there were enough people around him, Lisa is one of them (and, if he had secret girlfriends, I'm sure they too), who told him that those people were leeches and vultures but he didn't get rid of them but of the other person instead. When he wanted to have pain medication or whatever he turned to one of the doctors around him who happily provided him for large amounts of money. So yeah, this doctor then was an enabler and user but Michael gave him the power to be that to him. I mean, Michael knew the difference between a doctor who would do that and one who wouldn't, he went around looking for unscrupulous, money hungrey doctors because the other ones had said no to him. HIs excuse? Oh, they don't understand me, I need this stuff. So he surrounded himself with those shady, negative, enabling people who gave him anything he wanted when he could have gotten real help. Imagine now that you had been in that situation as a friend or family member trying to help him. He'd rather have thrown you out of his life than one of them.

    When I heard that he regretted having had so much plastic surgery and that he wouldn't do it again I was glad because I thought thank God he finally sees that it had gone to far and he sees the consequences of his decision. I completely understand why he wanted to change his nose but nobody told him to change it that many times and that's what I mean, he decided to do that and then had to live with the consequences of that.

    If you want to see him as the ultimate victim, okay but I can't and don't want to because it think it's not fair to all the other people that we make judgements about. I mean with Michael everybody is sooo indulgent and understanding even more so than with their own family members and friends sometimes.
    I love Michael the artist and the man and that won't change but every now and then I just want to emphasize that for all the trouble and drama in his life that he couldn't help and for which I feel terribly sorry for him, there was, just as in in everybody elses life, problems that were caused by himself and his actions, that's all I'm saying.

    I mean what my father did is not my mother's responsablity, not mine, not my sister's, not his parents, not his friends', it's just his. My mother stayed with him because she saw him as the victim all the time and wanted to help him until she had almost let him squeeze every bit of life and energy out of her. My mom was a bit like Lisa Marie who initially really wanted to help and protect Michael, I really believe that, but them became too wrapped up in the web of shady people around him. She saw them for what they were and tried to help him to get away from them but without his own willingness to do that, nothing happenend so she left because trying to save Michael eventually took too much of her own energy away, My mother finally left my father when she realized that she'd go down with him if she didn't put the brakes on...

    *sighs*

  3. CherryLeigh says:

    About responsabilty again:

    He did take care of these children, did everything for them, he was a very good father but these children are now practiacally orphans because he didn't take care enough of himself and because they never had a mother since he decided to do the family thing on his own, to pay women for having his children and then disappear again. You said yourself that children need a mother, than one parent cannot take the role of both. And if the children will ever feel rejected, sad and angry, they should be angry at him, too, why only at Debbie as you say? That's why I'm talking about responabilty of Debbie AND Michael.

    She offered and he took up the offer.
    She had children for money only and he put his own wish of having children above their having a mother.
    She put herself up for sale and accepted large amounts of money, ready to give children to a man and then leave them and he accepted his children's not having a mother in order to have them for himself.

    His children will know the truth someday (as I don't think they are aware of a money deal now) and if they will be mad then hey have a right to be mad at Debbie for offering what she did, have children and then leave them as well as at Michael for allowing this deal to happen in the first place. This deal could have never been realized without the two of them agreeing to it and accepting the consequences, it was not just Debbie's fault and it wasn't only Michael's either, that's actually all I wanted to say and then add something to responsabilty in general that he had for his own life, not just concerning the kids.

  4. Sabine says:

    Hey Cherry, Good morning.

    You know I read both of your messages and I think I see where we're differing in our thinking, although we agree on a lot. You asked me:

    Cherry: I really don’t understand why you can’t at least ackknowledge that I SAID to make the offer was Debbie’s decision, action and thus her responsabilty and that it was Michael’s decision, action and responsability to take it up, it’s applying the same principle to both Michael and Debbie, nothing more or less.

    The problem I have is there IS more -- I read a theme of blame-based thinking that wants to MAKE Michael "wrong" for his choices; to kind of blame him for them, rather than try to understand the choices. See, I don't do that to a person who has been victimized.

    I believe doing that to a person who has been victimized is REVICTIMIIZING them. It's like how a lawyer in a rape case will talk down to the victim and ask her why she was dressed the way she was or in the bar she was, or with the guy SHE CHOSE -- and yeah she chose to wear the clothes, she picked the bar and she definitely picked the guy and she probably made HUGE mistakes, but she is the one that was raped, there is no excuse, justification or rationalization for her violation and his words, his accusations rape her all over again.

    Or it's like the child that's been molested, and when the subject comes up, the parent says well why did you sit on his lap or why didn't you tell him no, or why did you keep going over there -- you liked it. She (or he) is the child that's been molested, and yeah that child probably made a lot of mistakes but the words molest the child all over again and make him wrong/bad for -- FOR being a VICTIM, something the child could not help and had no control over.

    So when I read these words, I kinda cringe:

    Cherry:I don’t think Michael was the victim all the time but also the originator of his own unhappiness. He took decisions, accepted things and rejected others, accepted people and rejected others and whatever pain that caused him in his life is in my opinion not to always just be explained with the argument that oh, he was used, he had no choice and so on. He had the choice for example to start taking prescription drugs and almost die from it although he had small children or let Janet, Randy and his mother help him instead of to throw a tantrum, just to name one example. . . . . What I just want to do is to get a way from the image of Michael – the eternal victim of everybody and everything around him. I just don’t want to feel sorry for him all the time and for everything that went wrong because it’s okay to be critical sometimes. I think that you for example try to explain everything in a way that shows Michael as the victim who had no choice, no responsabilty, that it was always the other person in his life but for me it doesn’t work that way. If taking responsibiltiy for your actions applies to everybody else in the world than he should not be excluded.

    Michael was victimized and there is no worth or truth in running from it or the eternal sadness that we should all feel, since we all played a part.
    Michael had his childhood stolen from him which is what should serve the basis for human development and critical thinking that allows for good choices.

    When a child does not have that foundation it is a given that they will make BAD CHOICES as an adult.

    To "runaway" from that truth and now stand in judgment of Michael and want to "force" him to be accountable for his bad choices is like the parent who abused a child who has now grown up to be a drug addict who takes the drugs to escape from the memory of his painful childhood saying:

    Look at you! You need to stop and take care of yourself. You're hurting yourself.

    Well, I mean the parent IS right, it is true but damn, it's all well and good and really easy for them -- they're not the one in pain. And they are also not taking a good look in the mirror and feeling the sadness and the horror for what they DID to that child that caused that behavior.

    When we were all snapping our fingers to the beat of Michael's music and loving his performances, he was being DAMAGED. Since we can't MAKE anyone change or fix anyone but our selves, as a society, I think rather than point our fingers at Michael and say:
    " Cherry: He had the choice for example to start taking prescription drugs and almost die from it although he had small children or let Janet, Randy and his mother help him instead of to throw a tantrum, just to name one example."

    We might do better to start looking at how we treat child stars, and how we can change that before we fuck up another child's life in our eternal desire to be entertained.

    By the way, Michael's whole family is dysfunctional -- they continue to deny collectively that Michael was ever abused so I can understand exactly why Michael didn't want to leave his small children with any of his family members.

    Cherry:And about the dishonest and disfuntional people in his life…I think there were enough people around him, Lisa is one of them (and, if he had secret girlfriends, I’m sure they too), who told him that those people were leeches and vultures but he didn’t get rid of them but of the other person instead. So yeah, this doctor then was an enabler and user but Michael gave him the power to be that to him. I mean, Michael knew the difference between a doctor who would do that and one who wouldn’t, he went around looking for unscrupulous, money hungrey doctors because the other ones had said no to him. HIs excuse? Oh, they don’t understand me, I need this stuff. So he surrounded himself with those shady, negative, enabling people who gave him anything he wanted when he could have gotten real help. Imagine now that you had been in that situation as a friend or family member trying to help him. He’d rather have thrown you out of his life than one of them.

    I said this before, but I'll say it again, no self-respecting adult likes to be told what to do like a child. People -- even fucked up damaged people with major issues, like to come to their OWN decisions. That's why therapy is so successful. A therapist gently guides a person into realizing the truth for them self.

    So if I was Michael's friend what I would have GENTLY encouraged him to do was go to therapy. Unless someone was going to be with Michael 24/7, hold his hand and make all his decisions FOR HIM, it made no sense for them to tell him who was dysfunctional and dishonest -- he needed to learn that for himself. You know the difference between if you give a man a fish or if you teach a man to fish.

    If Michael made the decision not to go to therapy or not to do whatever, then I'd have to respect that, try to understand it and then decide for my own self whether I could continue to be his friend. Everyone has to make their own decisions.

    Cherry:If you want to see him as the ultimate victim, okay but I can’t and don’t want to because it think it’s not fair to all the other people that we make judgements about. I mean with Michael everybody is sooo indulgent and understanding even more so than with their own family members and friends sometimes.

    I see a kind of jealousy in this comment. Like why should Michael get such nice treatment? I don't make judgments about people; I make judgments about behavior. I don't see Michael as the ultimate victim, I see the bigger picture.

    A society obsessed with being distracted and entertained and willing to sacrifice the lives of children to get it. A society that doesn't protect child stars or act in their best interest -- who exploits them and sexualizes them at early ages. Who forces the child to skip over major developmental stages that are critical to being a functioning adult and then ridicules and lambasts the child as an adult when he/she predictably becomes fucked up.

    A society obsessed with external beauty and who sends messages that only one standard of beauty is acceptable; who celebrates and promotes one standard of beauty and rejects and ridicules all others and then PRETENDS not to understand why people are running around killing themselves to look like how they've been told to look.

    A society that promotes medicating away emotional problems, that has made it easy to become a functional drug addict, that continually creates and makes available drugs and then PRETENDS to not understand why people are not going for help for their emotional issues, talking about it and resolving it, and instead popping pills/drinking/eating/overworking/overexercising/injecting themselves with needles/using sex dysfunctionally et cetera

    A society that is basically blaming and judgmental, that doesn't seem to ever reflect on it's own behavior and like Michael said, Change the Man in the mirror.

    Cherry:I just want to emphasize that for all the trouble and drama in his life that he couldn’t help and for which I feel terribly sorry for him, there was, just as in in everybody elses life, problems that were caused by himself and his actions, that’s all I’m saying.

    I mean okay, I hear you. I guess, yeah, that's true though I"m not sure what worth it is for you to do that, what it gives you. I feel there's also a time and a place for everything. If a person has been hit by a car and is laying on the floor bleeding with a bone protruding out of his leg, that's not the time to run over and say, What the hell is wrong with you. YOU ran across the street! YOU didn't stop for the light. Look at what YOU did to yourself.

    What that person needs is a doctor and a cast, so that they can heal. Expecting them to run a marathon, with a leg that was never properly taken cared of is cruel and unfair. Ridiculing them for walking crooked and limping, for making bad choices because they are in so much pain is unfair and misinformed.

    When did Michael heal?

    Michael is gone. I, myself think it's more worthy to look at all the lessons that Michael's life has shown us, collectively, and to do the work that we can, which is to make the change for the better in OURSELVES -- because we can best INSPIRE change other people when we improve our own selves.

    It's time for us to look at our own selves as a people, as a society, as a family with our own Michaels who we might be damaging RIGHT NOW.

    I think rather than blaming Michael we, as a society, might do better to concentrate on stopping the cycle.

  5. CherryLeigh says:

    I actually try my best to understand MIchael's choices, to explain them with what I know about him and to see that from his point of view, they made sense. But the truth is this:

    I am extreme concerning my feelings for Michael. I love him, I'm a huge fan, I identify with him and when it's like that I can "forgive hiim" everything and understand everything. But then everytime I hear something I didn't know before about his drug abuse and all that came with that my mind goes crazy. This is really the one subject that I can't deal with with when it comes to him and infects everything else. All those horror scenarios come into my head on their own, I don't want them to come, they just do and in that moment I am literally powerless. So then I spend a few days or weeks trying to put my heart into the witness-protection programme. I' m trying to protect my heart and my love for him from t hese thoughts so that they don't destory it and I guess I do that by attacking him, blaming him, criticizing him for everything that happened that had to do with drug abuse and its consequences. Seeing Michael as the victim in that moment doesn't help me but somehow letting my frustration out on him does. And to some extend I think I am right for being critical of some of the things he did. I am right for not finding an excuse for everything. I mean, I am obsessed with him but I don't want to glorify him because the more I do the deeper I fall when I hear something negative like for example that during the Madison Square Garden Shows Michael was so high and out of it that one time he passed out backstage and Karen had to feed him with doughnuts and Red Bull to reanimate him. I also read that another time during 2003 Michael had taken so much sleeping pills or whatever that in the middle of the night he fell out of the bed and hurt himself, there was blood but he couldn't even get up. Another time he was so out of it that Prince got scared and called 911. I mean in that moment maybe I also compare this to my own situation with my dad. I felt soooo sorry for him for such a long time, I was so scared and worried for him, I wanted to do everything to help him. Now I see that he is the father, he should take care of me, worry about me, be the adult and let me be the child. And to me Michael did just the same to Prince and his other children w hen he took that stuff because it made him unable to take care of his kids, they were probably scared and worried to death sometimes for him. I really don't want to know what kinds of things they've seen already...

    And even though I don't know if what I've heard is 100% true or not, I don't know how such specific stories could be invented and for what reason. I can imagine that they happened and that's enough to get my mind working even though I don't want to.

    So to have that in mind and then still see Michael as the victim of that situation does not work for me at all, I feel disappointed by him, sad, disgusted, angry and I have to let that out somehow so that it doesn't poison me and the place I always keep in my heart for him from the inside.

    It's my way of dealing with Michael's faults. Of course he was only human and many things I do understand, the lost childhood, Joseph, the issues in dealing with other people, I understand that very much and I also see how it would have led to prescription drug abuse but it still hurts me and so for a while I have to be pissed at him even t hough he never did anything to me personally of course. Maybe my problem is that I always imagine what I would have done or how I would have felt if I had been a person in his life, his mother, his friend, his girlfriend or his child. The thought that I would have worried about him so much but that he probably wouldn't have acknowledged that worry for love and just fire me from his life, just as my father did with everybody who wanted to help him is just...it hurts me.

    So I hear all you say about society and I think it's very true but that is not the problem, it's a thing within myself between the part of me that adores Michael and the one that is mad at him for doing some of the things he did. I wish I could love him all the time and ust completely ignore everything negative about him even though as I said it's okay to question him every now and then and to say, no, I disagree!
    I mean this stuff I hear I stumble over, I'm not looking for it, I'm always searching for the positive and fun stories about him and I've actually collcted all of them which is part of my emergency plan in case I have one of those "fits" again.

    So maybe what I wrote has given you a certain impression of me but I know that I really do try everything to understand Michael, I spent the last 365+ days researching and studying him and my love for him grew and grew but every now and then I hear something and my mind interferes and says "you can'st still love him now that you know that he did this and that". For a while after June 25th 2010 I thought okay, it's gone, I can deal with it from now on but then a few days ago I read the MSQ 2001 story and then also heard that during the Neverland raid in 2003 officers had found open alcohol bottles next to Michael's bed and that he at one time did mix medicatin and alcohol in that state signed documents that later on he couldn't remember singing...I mean when I heard that I told myself, no, stop, try to understand that but as much as I try, my mind immeditaly starts working against him...it's like a mechanism that I'm really trying to work against. And I guess I came here and discussed things with you, tyring to make you understand that Michael is not always just the victim because I felt that I needed some support in blaming Michael and somebody to tell me, yes, you're right, what he did was wrong, it's alright that you feel that way about him right now. I guess I need that because I feel that I'm the only one or one of those very few who sometimes are mad at Michael. I don't want to be!!! It's a horrible feeling but I can't rid myself ot thinking that inspite of all the compassion for him and his situations that whe should have, he did wrong sometimes and it's okay that I think that way. You might understand everything he did and not blame him, not ever not love him as much as you normally do, I'm not there yet but I try everything to get there, this is very important to me!

    Okay, I hope I made sense and could exlain why I argued the way I did concerning Debbie and the decisions he took in his life in gerneral. I need to hear from other people that yeah, sometimes he made mistakes and that it's ok for me to feel that way, that it doesn't mean that I don't love him. I guess this actually shows that I'm pretty messed up myself sometimes and even hypocritical. I'm working on it, some days I succeed, others I don't. I just hope up in heaven Michael understands me and doesn't hate me the way I do him sometimes. :face:

  6. Sabine says:

    Awwww Cherry!!!!! ((((((((((((((((((((((Cherry))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

    thank you for being so honest!!!!!! I love that you're so honest! I wish more people could be so brave to just say what they feel!

    It sounds to me like what is happening is Michael's story has touched you deeply and brought to life many of your own hurt and disappointments, things you haven't healed from as a child and Cherry, that is WONDERFUL!!!!

    These thing happen so that we can heal.

    If I can just make a small suggestion -- what you are being so brave to admit and explain is something lots of people struggle with and against.

    They are ANGRY and they don't want to be angry and they try to fight against it.

    I say LET YOURSELF BE ANGRY. Because behind that anger is hurt, hurt, hurt, deeeeeeep hurt.
    Don't do what was done to Michael TO Michael or even to yourself. Don't try to stop yourself from having feelings. It is human to feel.

    Cherry: Maybe my problem is that I always imagine what I would have done or how I would have felt if I had been a person in his life, his mother, his friend, his girlfriend or his child. The thought that I would have worried about him so much but that he probably wouldn’t have acknowledged that worry for love and just fire me from his life, just as my father did with everybody who wanted to help him is just…it hurts me.

    Oh, honey I understand! I was very, very angry for a very long time. And it does hurt when you have to stand aside and watch a person you love destroy themselves and hurt you in the process. You feel powerless and victimized too, because they won't/can't help themselves!!!! I understand!!!!!

    Cherry: I mean in that moment maybe I also compare this to my own situation with my dad. I felt soooo sorry for him for such a long time, I was so scared and worried for him, I wanted to do everything to help him. Now I see that he is the father, he should take care of me, worry about me, be the adult and let me be the child. And to me Michael did just the same to Prince and his other children w hen he took that stuff because it made him unable to take care of his kids, they were probably scared and worried to death sometimes for him. I really don’t want to know what kinds of things they’ve seen already…

    It's a horrible truth! Those children probably saw so much that they should not have. But Michael was only doing the best he could! In many ways he was a hurt child himself, trying to cope with his own pain. And I've always said and will always say, people in pain can be very hurtful.

    But Michael did so good, didn't he? He didn't pass on the legacy of abuse . . . he didn't abandon his kids . . . he didn't ever stop loving them.

    Am I making excuses? No, I'm just saying Michael was trying the best way he knew how and he was doing a lot of good for his kids and for the world, even as his heart was in so much pain.

    So while Michael might remind you a lot of your father -- he was not ultimately your father. Michael gave a lot of himself to world -- sacrificed himself in so many ways. It was part of his problem. He was selfless.

    So I think the issue for you is your own unhealed hurt with your Dad that's now being projected onto Michael.

    But Michael wasn't your Dad, Cherry, and he can't be blamed for what your Dad did to you; it wasn't the same thing exactly even though it might feel similar.

    Your Dad has to own his mistakes. You're right, you couldn't save him; it wasn't your job to do so. He was supposed to take care of YOU!!!! And he didn't and that is terrible, but there it is. You can only face it, grieve, mourn, hurt, yell, scream, be angry and upset and then ultimately, hopefully forgive. The only way out is through.

    Cherry: And I guess I came here and discussed things with you, tyring to make you understand that Michael is not always just the victim because I felt that I needed some support in blaming Michael and somebody to tell me, yes, you’re right, what he did was wrong, it’s alright that you feel that way about him right now. I guess I need that because I feel that I’m the only one or one of those very few who sometimes are mad at Michael. I don’t want to be!!! It’s a horrible feeling but I can’t rid myself ot thinking that inspite of all the compassion for him and his situations that whe should have, he did wrong sometimes and it’s okay that I think that way.

    Again, thank you for being soooooo honest! I appreciate it so much. Michael was blamed and used as a scapegoat by other people who didn't want to look at their own issues, face their own pain starting from his father who abused him for that very reason, and in many ways people are still doing that to him. So ppppppplease, don't do that to Michael.

    You're angry at your father! Be angry! Give yourself permission to have those feelings.

    You're angry at Michael for being like your father in so many ways. Give yourself permission to be angry at Michael!

    Michael can take it! :smile:

    And then when you've felt the anger just sit with it and see what comes up. You'll be amazed at what you find!!!!!

    But always remember Michael was very different from your Dad in lots of ways. Michael wasn't the typical addict leaning on everyone else and wanting everyone to take care of him.

    Michael took care of LOTS of people. Michael had been through soooooooo much. How much pain can a person take before they falter?

    Cherry: I wish I could love him all the time and ust completely ignore everything negative about him even though as I said it’s okay to question him every now and then and to say, no, I disagree!

    I don't think healthy love ignores the negative about the person you love. That's co-dependent and enabling.

    Real love sees the whole person and loves them anyway. :heart:

    Cherry:I need to hear from other people that yeah, sometimes he made mistakes and that it’s ok for me to feel that way,

    You don't need other people to give you permission to have your feelings but Cherry

    YES MICHAEL MADE LOTS OF MISTAKES AND IT"S NATURAL TO BE ANGRY ABOUT IT!!!!

    Remember hate/anger is a mask for pain and hurt -- so you're trying to heal, I think if you understand and accept that, you'll be less angry at Michael and you'll start to have more compassion for him, for yourself and ultimately also for your Dad, and even your mother.

    You'll start to see that Michael was you, too, with a father that didn't take care of him either. :wub:

  7. CherryLeigh says:

    Thank you for understanding me, Sabine. Somehow it was easy for me to be honest to you about that because I know the problem, I just don't know how to deal with it but what you said is true and helped me dry my tears.

    Thank you for saying that Michael had a father that didn't take care of him either and that this is where we are similar. I know of course that Joseph treated him so badly but somehow I never saw the relationship both him and I had with our father as something we have in common. I mean I saw that we both had problems with our fathers in our childhoods but I always took it for granted that these problems were very different from each other. My dad never told me I was ugly and never made me do something I didn't want to but he took away my childhood in making me worry about him constantly He was my hero when I was a litle girl but he never actually was really there for me when I needed him, for all the big moments and big questions in life or simply for some male input on things, some male energy in my life. I only had my mother to turn to but as you said, we need both. Michael also only had his mother for emotional support or just emotion in general so that is what Michael and I have in common and what made us angry, sad and afraid. He was so full of love himself and at the same time he needed it so badly and imo he never got enough from his own family.

    That makes me think of a quote by Audrey Hepbun which I love, it goes like this: "I was born with an enormous need for affection and a terrible need to give it." That's how I am and also who Michael was.

    Sabine: They are ANGRY and they don’t want to be angry and they try to fight against it.I say LET YOURSELF BE ANGRY. Because behind that anger is hurt, hurt, hurt, deeeeeeep hurt.
    Don’t do what was done to Michael TO Michael or even to yourself.Don’t try to stop yourself from having feelings.It is human to feel.

    You wrote something similar on the Smooth Criminal Bar if I remember correctly. I also remember feeling inspired by that, I wanted to go back and copy and paste it into my emergency plan collection. :smile:
    I think you said something like it's ok to have issues and negative feelings and fears and not know what to do about them but what you have to do is to acknowledge that they are there and just let yourself feel what you feel instead of trying to surpess them the instant you feel them coming. THat's how I understood it and you are right, I don't allow myself to feel what I feel, I always think that my life is good I should be grateful for all I have and not feel sorry for myself or be mad at things that in comparison to what other people endure are nothing. But I realize now that for the last couple of days I have tried to do what you wrote on the SCB and just let myself feel angry even though it makes me miserable.

    Sabine:Oh, honey I understand!I was very, very angry for a very long time. And it does hurt when you have to stand aside and watch a person you love destroy themselves and hurt you in the process.You feel powerless and victimized too, because they won’t/can’t help themselves!!!!I understand!!!!!

    Yes, that's exactly the thing! Thank you for understanding!

    Sabine:So while Michael might remind you a lot of your father — he was not ultimately your father.Michael gave a lot of himself to world — sacrificed himself in so many ways.It was part of his problem.He was selfless.So I think the issue for you is your own unhealed hurt with your Dad that’s now being projected onto Michael.But Michael wasn’t your Dad, Cherry, and he can’t be blamed for what your Dad did to you; it wasn’t the same thing exactly even though it might feel similar.

    Yes, I keep telling myself that. No, he was not my father even though I see parallels between them concerning the bad as well as the good things. My father is very generous too but he thinks money is everything. He is still very much a child himself and so was Michael but he was there for his kids and let them be kids, contrary to what Joseph did to him, he had ideals about how to raise a child and from what I have heard he was quite strict concerning what they were allow to eat, watch, buy and so on. My father led my mother do all that parenting stuff. SO that's another difference between them.
    So I don't blame Michael for what my father did to me, not conciously at least. But I ask you and please answer me, what do you feel when you hear such stories about Michael as I described above? Okay, you could say they are lies but let's pretend for a moment that they were true. How do you deal with that? Does it only make you feel sorry for Michael and nothing else? You never once thought oh man, why did he do this?

    Sabine:Your Dad has to own his mistakes.You’re right, you couldn’t save him; it wasn’t your job to do so.He was supposed to take care of YOU!!!!And he didn’t and that is terrible, but there it is. You can only face it, grieve, mourn, hurt, yell, scream, be angry and upset and then ultimately, hopefully forgive.The only way out is through.

    That is the key, forgiveness. I have to teach myself in that. I actually thought of myself as being a person that can forgive so for a while I felt so horrible because it seemed as if I coulnd't forgive Michael when it was actually not my place to be forgiving him for anything. Still, in my head I have to find a way to "forgive" him for what my mind tells me he did wrong even though it's got nothing to do with me. That#s the predicament I'm in that's my issue, that's what I have to work on. But as I said, I imagine myself as a person in his life and maybe that's where this "he would have hurt me with his behavior so I would have to forgive him that" comes from. I don't know if you understand what I mean, I can't explain it any better right now.

    Sabine:Again, thank you for being soooooo honest!I appreciate it so much. Michael was blamed and used as a scapegoat by other people who didn’t want to look at their own issues, face their own pain starting from his father who abused him for that very reason, and in many ways people are still doing that to him.So ppppppplease, don’t do that to Michael.You’re angry at your father!Be angry!Give yourself permission to have those feelings.You’re angry at Michael for being like your father in so many ways.Give yourself permission to be angry at Michael!Michael can take it! :smile:

    It doesn't feel to me as if I blame Michael for what my father did but I guess I do subconciously and I really don't want that. The main problem is that I just can't deal with the fact that Michael, the guy who said in his own book that he'd never take drugs ended up dying with Propofol involved and a years stretching addiction to painkillers and sleeping medication leading up to that. This is something that I feel we can't deny and while you and as it seems most others don't have a problem with that, I do and yes, part of that might have to do with my father's drinking but it has also got something to do with feeing let down by a person because he was not the way you thought he was or how he presented himself.
    So yes, I have to learn forgivess but everything that has to do with drugs, legal or illegal, heavy drinking, being high and out of it, not being yourself really scare and disgust me because sometimes you could clearly see that Michael was under the influence of this stuff and it changed him, he wasn't Michael during those times, he was somebody else that really scared me, I'm not kidding and I was angry at him for changing so much. As I said, my mind then tells me "how can you love him now, look at him, look what he's doing". So what I write is not just a feelig in general but can be attached to very real incidents that happened involving drugs and countless visits to doctors in a short period of time.

    Sabine:And then when you’ve felt the anger just sit with it and see what comes up.You’ll be amazed at what you find!!!!! But always remember Michael was very different from your Dad in lots of ways.Michael wasn’t the typical addict leaning on everyone else and wanting everyone to take care of him.Michael took care of LOTS of people. Michael had been through soooooooo much.How much pain can a person take before they falter?

    That IS true and I know he just wanted to find a way to deal with all of this pain but the way he did it scares me and turns me off . That's why I wish he could have found another way and I guess also why I blame him for not having found another way. a way that I can deal with better...yeah, this is messed up, I know, I'm working on it.

    Sabine: I don’t think healthy love ignores the negative about the person you love.That’s co-dependent and enabling.Real love sees the whole person and loves them anyway.

    Totally and this is what I've been trying for a very long time now, loving the whole person that Michael was because love means knowing the worst about somebody and still wanting to be with them, respecting and accepting them.

    Sabine:You don’t need other people to give you permission to have your feelings but CherryYES MICHAEL MADE LOTS OF MISTAKES AND IT”S NATURAL TO BE ANGRY ABOUT IT!!!!

    Oh my God, thank you for saying that, really! Finally I know that you do after all think that he made a lot mistakes, too and that I'm not a bad personfor thinking that. Until now I really wasn't sure you ever felt that way about him at all.

    Sabine:Remember hate/anger is a mask for pain and hurt — so you’re trying to heal, I think if you understand and accept that, you’ll be less angry at Michael and you’ll start to have more compassion for him, for yourself and ultimately also for your Dad, and even your mother.You’ll start to see that Michael was you, too, with a father that didn’t take care of him either.

    Again, I can only say thank your for taking the time and tellng me that. I am trying to heal everyday from juall the BS that happened to me, big or small, just ilke everybody else tries and being indulgend and patient with myelf in that process with, I hope, help me have more compassion for everybody.

    :heart:

  8. Sabine says:

    Cherry: Thank you for understanding me, Sabine.

    I'm glad you were able to feel understood by my response -- that's what's most important when communicating, is that both people feel understood. I hope you're not still feeling sad :heart:

    Cherry: I know of course that Joseph treated him so badly but somehow I never saw the relationship both him and I had with our father as something we have in common. I mean I saw that we both had problems with our fathers in our childhoods but I always took it for granted that these problems were very different from each other.

    What's most important, IMO, is not the particular actions that the parent took, the problems or issues they had, but how the child felt in response. A parent can be loving and great but miss one piano recital, and if that child felt neglected because of it, then he'll be able to relate to a child who only saw his parent once a year.

    Cherry: My dad never told me I was ugly and never made me do something I didn’t want to but he took away my childhood in making me worry about him constantly He was my hero when I was a litle girl but he never actually was really there for me when I needed him, for all the big moments and big questions in life or simply for some male input on things, some male energy in my life. I only had my mother to turn to but as you said, we need both.

    So you see how you guys are similar -- I think that's so important.

    Cherry: Michael also only had his mother for emotional support or just emotion in general so that is what Michael and I have in common and what made us angry, sad and afraid. He was so full of love himself and at the same time he needed it so badly and imo he never got enough from his own family.

    Yeah, I think Michael was a very sensitive child by nature and he needed a lot of lot and understanding, maybe more than his brothers and sisters but I don't think that he had his mother -- he had her love, but she abandoned him too, and she did not protect him like a mother should have.

    Cherry: That makes me think of a quote by Audrey Hepbun which I love, it goes like this: “I was born with an enormous need for affection and a terrible need to give it.” That’s how I am and also who Michael was.

    That's a beautiful quote. I always think of it like this: If you see a child who is emotional abused or physically, you'll watch her play with dolls and she'll give all of her love and affection to that doll -- that's how she feels better. That's how human beings were made -- we feel good when we give love and affection. Unless we allow our hate and anger to poison us, that's how we are naturally.

    Cherry: You wrote something similar on the Smooth Criminal Bar if I remember correctly. I also remember feeling inspired by that, I wanted to go back and copy and paste it into my emergency plan collection. :smile: I think you said something like it’s ok to have issues and negative feelings and fears and not know what to do about them but what you have to do is to acknowledge that they are there and just let yourself feel what you feel instead of trying to surpress them the instant you feel them coming. THat’s how I understood it and you are right, I don’t allow myself to feel what I feel, I always think that my life is good I should be grateful for all I have and not feel sorry for myself or be mad at things that in comparison to what other people endure are nothing. But I realize now that for the last couple of days I have tried to do what you wrote on the SCB and just let myself feel angry even though it makes me miserable.

    I'm so touched that you'd remember something I said and that it would have held meaning for you! Wow! :wassat:

    You know, why I say that is because even though it feels terrible, feelings come up in us because our subconscious is trying to tell us that something needs to heal -- that's what I believe.

    It's like being hungry or having to go to the bathroom. Someone tells a story or you read a story or you meet someone and they make you angry or sad -- it's pointing to something inside that needs to heal or grow. At least that's how I look at life so I can always be growing and becoming better.

    Cherry: Yes, I keep telling myself that. No, he was not my father even though I see parallels between them concerning the bad as well as the good things. My father is very generous too but he thinks money is everything. He is still very much a child himself

    LOL, I have kids with a man like that :biggrin: it's soooooooo frustrating!!!!
    :angry:

    Cherry: My father led my mother do all that parenting stuff

    yep, that's my situation. I discipline and he plays with them. So they love him and resent me! :lol: I always tell him he plays good cop/bad cop with me.

    Cherry: So I don’t blame Michael for what my father did to me, not conciously at least. But I ask you and please answer me, what do you feel when you hear such stories about Michael as I described above? Okay, you could say they are lies but let’s pretend for a moment that they were true. How do you deal with that? Does it only make you feel sorry for Michael and nothing else? You never once thought oh man, why did he do this?

    I don't think you blame Michael for what your father did. It's not that simple. It's like Michael reminds you of the feelings you have towards your Dad, and psychologically they call it transference -- you feel the anger that you should feel for your father for Michael. It's like if you meet someone that reminds you of someone you hate, and so you hate that person even though they are not that person.

    Hmmmm, what do I feel? I don't think they're lies, no. 1, I think they're probably true. But I don't get angry because in many ways, I understand why Michael was doing that. The only kinds of behaviors that make me angry is when a person enables, abuses or uses another. I hate that, because it's someone using another person to avoid dealing with their own stuff.

    So I just feel sad, sad that Michael was in such pain, sad that his children had to see him like that and sad for how it's going to most certainly affect them in a negative way.

    Cherry: That is the key, forgiveness. I have to teach myself in that.

    I think forgiveness just happens naturally, like a scab covers a wound and eventually it falls off when the skin underneath has healed. I consider forgiveness the new skin underneath -- it has to grow :wink:

    Cherry: I actually thought of myself as being a person that can forgive so for a while I felt so horrible because it seemed as if I coulnd’t forgive Michael when it was actually not my place to be forgiving him for anything. Still, in my head I have to find a way to “forgive” him for what my mind tells me he did wrong even though it’s got nothing to do with me. That#s the predicament I’m in that’s my issue, that’s what I have to work on. But as I said, I imagine myself as a person in his life and maybe that’s where this “he would have hurt me with his behavior so I would have to forgive him that” comes from. I don’t know if you understand what I mean, I can’t explain it any better right now.

    I really admire you for how much you're looking at yourself and how you're trying to figure out what it is you need to do to help yourself. I think you'll figure it out eventually because you have the one thing you need: The desire!!!!!

    I don't think it's actually Michael you need to forgive, but the person he is reminding you of -- the person he emotionally reminds you of. It might not be the obvious answer -- your Dad. It might be someone else.

    Cherry: It doesn’t feel to me as if I blame Michael for what my father did but I guess I do subconciously and I really don’t want that. The main problem is that I just can’t deal with the fact that Michael, the guy who said in his own book that he’d never take drugs ended up dying with Propofol involved and a years stretching addiction to painkillers and sleeping medication leading up to that. This is something that I feel we can’t deny and while you and as it seems most others don’t have a problem with that, I do and yes, part of that might have to do with my father’s drinking but it has also got something to do with feeing let down by a person because he was not the way you thought he was or how he presented himself.

    So maybe the problem is to let go of the image you had in your mind of who Michael was, and open yourself up to the bigger, more fuller, more intricate reality of who he really was: An incredibly strong, yes, morally and spiritually person, a loving and giving, talented human being, but also an incredibly hurt, damaged and betrayed person. A spirit that had been taken advantage of and used for a very long time -- Michael's spirit was tired and he was in the end, very, very, human.

    I myself have said in my life that I would never do certain things -- circumstances come about, you find yourself in a situation and you're behaving in that way, but it's important then to just step back and understand why and learn from it and grow.

    So yes, I have to learn forgivess but everything that has to do with drugs, legal or illegal, heavy drinking, being high and out of it, not being yourself really scare and disgust me because sometimes you could clearly see that Michael was under the influence of this stuff and it changed him, he wasn’t Michael during those times, he was somebody else that really scared me, I’m not kidding and I was angry at him for changing so much.

    I think that's a key right there, the fact that it scares you. You should just ask yourself why and see what comes up. I remember seeing Michael like that - it used to hurt my heart, and also his eyes changed -- they were vacant and empty and lifeless. And his smile was sad and not vibrant and full of life. I think that remained true until the end of his life, sadly. But he did start to get better around 2003 and I was so happy to see that.

    Cherry: As I said, my mind then tells me “how can you love him now, look at him, look what he’s doing”. So what I write is not just a feelig in general but can be attached to very real incidents that happened involving drugs and countless visits to doctors in a short period of time.

    I think everyone who has had a loved one involved in drugs can relate to this feeling -- Cherry, as I would tell anyone who has dealt with family issues involving abuse or drugs, you should go to counseling or at least a group, where you can talk to people like you -- and you'll see that all of the feelings you have are quite common amongst members of the family of someone who has had an addiction.

    Cherry: That IS true and I know he just wanted to find a way to deal with all of this pain but the way he did it scares me and turns me off . That’s why I wish he could have found another way and I guess also why I blame him for not having found another way. a way that I can deal with better…yeah, this is messed up, I know, I’m working on it.

    It's a natural human emotion, Cherry. I recently had this experience, where I saw a person I really care about just acting so very ugly and dysfunctionally, and it WAS a turn off. It made me sad that they couldn't see how bad they were acting or that they didn't have the desire to change or stop -- that they couldn't see how to do it better.

    But what freed me is knowing that that was not my problem -- but their problem. So I released them and myself with love. I still love and care for the person, but I don't have to struggle with them and I don't have to keep them in my life and let them continue to hurt me.

    Cherry: Totally and this is what I’ve been trying for a very long time now, loving the whole person that Michael was because love means knowing the worst about somebody and still wanting to be with them, respecting and accepting them.

    For Michael, and I see this with a lot of fans, not just you, I think it's letting go of this idealized image we've created in our minds of who he was, and accepting who he was, warts and all. It means opening ourselves up to learning all we can about him and just accepting it, I think.

    Cherry: Oh my God, thank you for saying that, really! Finally I know that you do after all think that he made a lot mistakes, too and that I’m not a bad person for thinking that. Until now I really wasn’t sure you ever felt that way about him at all.

    :lol: Are you kidding me? Michael of course had lots of faults!!!! So do I -- so do you, so does everyone ! How could I not think that!!!!

    But I think that part, thinking you're a bad person for being angry at someone's faults -- I also think that's a clue to where you might have to look to see what's eating you. Just sit with it -- that's my advice. :wink:

    Sabine: Remember hate/anger is a mask for pain and hurt — so you’re trying to heal, I think if you understand and accept that, you’ll be less angry at Michael and you’ll start to have more compassion for him, for yourself and ultimately also for your Dad, and even your mother.You’ll start to see that Michael was you, too, with a father that didn’t take care of him either.

    Cherry: Again, I can only say thank your for taking the time and tellng me that. I am trying to heal everyday from juall the BS that happened to me, big or small, just ilke everybody else tries and being indulgend and patient with myelf in that process with, I hope, help me have more compassion for everybody.

    Awww, you're so welcome. You'll be fine. You're so young and you're doing something that most people avoid doing for their whole life! Looking at and accepting their feelings. But yes, be patient and kind with yourself -- be good to you.

    One of the greatest lessons I learned in my own life is the more I understood myself, the more I was able to understand other people. So knowledge of self, I think, is key

    :wub:

    p.s. I love our conversation and how its developed!!!!!

  9. CherryLeigh says:

    LOOOOL I'm sorry!!! It's hard to keep track of all the blockquotes and / ! I try one mor time but I have to go now so I hope you can still read it. Sorry!

    I’m glad you were able to feel understood by my response — that’s what’s most important when communicating, is that both people feel understood.I hope you’re not still feeling sad

    I still am a little sad because I just want this phase to be over, usually it gets better after a few days. Maybe it’s because I’m talking analyzing and talking so much about it right now…

    So you see how you guys are similar — I think that’s so important.

    Yes it is and it also makes me glad because I see quite a few similarities between me and Michael and this is why I know that eventually, if I understand myself better, I will understand him better, as well.

    but I don’t think that he had his mother — he had her love, but she abandoned him too, and she did not protect him like a mother should have.

    Yes that’s true but sometimes I wonder what she could have done really if the brothers were never home but on the road with Joseph. She couldn’t have gone with them because of her other children at home and Joseph did his thing with these boys even though Katherine might not have wanted them away from home so often and so long. It was another time I think, a time when women still had nothing much to say in a marriage especially with a husband like Joseph. But I think later on it was because Michael always wanted to please her that he sometimes ended up doing things that he didn’t want to so no, she’s not the perfect mother but he adored her and I think just like Michael with his kids, Katherine did the best she could with hers, doing it the only way she knew how, just like Michael and he too, wasn’t perfect because as we already said he let his children see things they should never have…

    You know, why I say that is because even though it feels terrible, feelings come up in us because our subconscious is trying to tell us that something needs to heal — that’s what I believe.It’s like being hungry or having to go to the bathroom.

    Very true! I definitely need some healing I think but so far negative feelings have come up and then disappeared again and I thought I was ok with that….

    I know I can always come to CCC for some sexual healing. :wink:

    LOL, I have kids with a man like, it’s soooooooo frustrating!!!!
    yep, that’s my situation.I discipline and he plays with them. So they love him and resent me!
    I always tell him he plays good cop/bad cop with me.

    My mother’s words exactly! But it’s really not like that because I admire and respect my mother so much whereas I’ve lost a great deal of respect for my father as a father even though he played with me when I was little and made me feel loved. He did all these things so as I said that’s what makes it even harder for me now to accept that it will never be like that again. Had he been an asshole from the beginning I would have moved on long ago.

    Hmmmm, what do I feel? I don’t think they’re lies, no. 1, I think they’re probably true.But I don’t get angry because in many ways, I understand why Michael was doing that.The only kinds of behaviors that make me angry is when a person enables, abuses or uses another. I hate that, because it’s someone using another person to avoid dealing with their own stuff.So I just feel sad, sad that Michael was in such pain, sad that his children had to see him like that and sad for how it’s going to most certainly affect them in a negative way.

    Ok, that’s where I need to get I guess. I mean I feel sad too for him and for his children very much so. Like I said, I also do understand why he was doing that, it’s not like I say “Oh my God, he’s such a crybaby, what was so difficult about getting over a little emotional pain?” I understand that he wanted to numb the pain away. I still don’t like the way he did it because that made a different Michael of him, somebody that I cannot yet reconcile with the funny, warm, good side of him.

    I think forgiveness just happens naturally, like a scab covers a wound and eventually it falls off when the skin underneath has healed.I consider forgiveness the new skin underneath — it has to grow

    Hmm…but I also think that you have to be willing to forgive someone. If you always think you were in the right and everybody else did you wrong then I think forgiveness won’t come for a very long time because you’re not used to it. So it definitely is something that heals like skin but imo it’s not bad to try to and teach yourself in it so that you don’t have to start from scratch every time somebody hurts you.

    So maybe the problem is to let go of the image you had in your mind of who Michael was

    I’m not exactly sure whether I understand what you mean here. Do you think I have this glorified image of Michael in my head that he couldn’t have lived up to anyway?

    and open yourself up to the bigger, more fuller, more intricate reality of who he really was: An incredibly strong, yes, morally and spiritually person, a loving and giving, talented human being, but also an incredibly hurt, damaged and betrayed person.A spirit that had been taken advantage of and used for a very long time — Michael’s spirit was tired and he was in the end, very, very, human.

    I see him for what he was, believe me, I marvel at his strength, spirituality, generosity, love and talent every day, I always will and I also know how bad he hurt and what the world did to him, how could I not see that? I just wish there could have been another way for him to deal with that, to get out of that so that he could still be here. I wish I could talk to him now and ask him if, looking back, if he would have done the same things again…ask him whether taking all these drugs has really helped him and if he can understand my feelings…As I said before, when I heard that he would not have had all the plastic surgery again if he could turn back time I felt so relieved and so good because of that. Is that strange? Maybe… I mean I am sorry that he had this regret because I think regret is one of the worst feelings to have but still knowing that he saw that things could have been handled differently comforts me a great deal and I’m not ashamed to admit it. So knowing that he regrets his drug abuse would do the same for me and I could accept it more.

    I myself have said in my life that I would never do certain things — circumstances come about, you find yourself in a situation and you’re behaving in that way, but it’s important then to just step back and understand why and learn from it and grow.

    Yes, same for me, due to what I have seen from my father and also from Michael I say that I would never do what they did to myself or to my children but who knows what will happen in the future. I mean Michael, just like everybody else lived his life day by day and I tend to analyze it in retrospect so that’s not fair I guess anyway…

    I think that’s a key right there, the fact that it scares you.You should just ask yourself why and see what comes up.

    You know, I did ask myself that. Why does it scare and disgust me so much? I think it has to do with my father and my general fear of losing control over yourself and hurting the people you love in that process. That’s what my father did. He wanted to make himself feel better and left us to ourselves to clean up the emotional mess that this caused. I probably am extreme in that way but I can’t help myself thinking that it’s so selfish to let others worry about you because of your behaviour. I mean I know Michael and my father were not only fathers but their own persons as well so sometimes you just don’t give a damn about everybody else and try to find a way for YOU to deal with whatever causes you pain the way you want it and it’s okay to do that once in a while but not every time, especially if you have people in your life that love you and that depend on you.

    I remember seeing Michael like that – it used to hurt my heart, and also his eyes changed — they were vacant and empty and lifeless.And his smile was sad and not vibrant and full of life.I think that remained true until the end of his life, sadly.But he did start to get better around 2003 and I was so happy to see that.

    I think 2003 was a very deep low from all I’ve heard but it got better in 2004 before turning to hell in 2005. He was so strong for having survived that.

    I think everyone who has had a loved one involved in drugs can relate to this feeling — Cherry, as I would tell anyone who has dealt with family issues involving abuse or drugs, you should go to counseling or at least a group, where you can talk to people like you — and you’ll see that all of the feelings you have are quite common amongst members of the family of someone who has had an addiction.

    I did go to counselling for half a year in 2006 and talked about my father…but it didn’t really help me. Maybe I should try it again now. I don’t know if such a group is the right thing for me because I guess there will be a lot of people there who live with someone that abuses drugs or drinks and I don’t, I stopped seeing my father on a regular basis in 2004 and even before that whenever I was at his place he never was drunk. I just heard all the horror stories from friends, colleagues and all the gambling and money stories from my mother.

    It’s a natural human emotion, Cherry.I recently had this experience, where I saw a person I really care about just acting so very ugly and dysfunctionally, and it WAS a turn off. It made me sad that they couldn’t see how bad they were acting or that they didn’t have the desire to change or stop — that they couldn’t see how to do it better.But what freed me is knowing that that was not my problem — but their problem.So I released them and myself with love.I still love and care for the person, but I don’t have to struggle with them and I don’t have to keep them in my life and let them continue to hurt me.

    Well, that’s the thing, Michael on the one hand is not a real person in my life so I shouldn’t be so affected by everything anyway. On the other hand, that means that I can’t solve the problem by just eliminating him from my life because I don’t want that! I want his presence in my life, I cherish it a lot .
    With my father, it’s the way you described, I love and care for him but I don’t have to struggle with him and continue to let him hurt me. So it’s all a big contradiction but then again it makes sense because I never knew Michael personally, we don’t have a history together the way I do with my father

    For Michael, and I see this with a lot of fans, not just you, I think it’s letting go of this idealized image we’ve created in our minds of who he was

    That’s what I asked above, whether you meant that I have an idealized image of him because I really think I don’t. To me, people who have an idealized image of him think that he’s an angel, that he didn’t have any faults and never did wrong, that everything negative about him is lies and that he never had a person in the world who truly loved him. To me, that’s having an idealized image of him and I certainly don’t have that at all. I trashed him in my head, I hated him sometimes and felt sorry for it afterwards but that’s how it is. If I have any image in my head of Michael then it’s probably one that is worse than he actually was. :smile:

    and accepting who he was, warts and all.

    Yes, that is the key, that’s where I’m trying to get.

    It means opening ourselves up to learning all we can about him and just accepting it, I think.

    Yes, I know, it’s “just” that but to me it’s easier said than done as I’ve tried to explain all along. :smile: I mean that’s the whole issue about love, opening yourself up to learing about the other person and accepting it, that’s what we all try. To me, there are a few things I cannot just accept about Michael yet but I’m working very hard to get there.

    One of the greatest lessons I learned in my own life is the more I understood myself, the more I was able to understand other people.So knowledge of self, I think, is key.

    Yes! Knowledge and love of self but I guess it’s long road to get there, that’s why older people usually are much more relaxed and at peace with everything than younger people. A few days ago I read a quote from Janet where she said that she loves her life now, she just wishes that she had the same confidence when she was younger…

    p.s. I love our conversation and how its developed!!!!!

    Me, too. :smile: Debbie is not such a great topic on conversation anyway. :wink:

  10. Sabine says:

    Hey Cherry -- don't worry, if the quotes come out all wacky, I can go back and fix it for you. As you see, I put in my name :wink:

    Okay, I read your whole response, and before I speak to particular things that you said, I want to explain about idealization.

    When you idealize someone, disappointment is always around the corner. There is no idealization without devaluation. So yes, I think you might have an idealized vision of who Michael is and that is why you're having a hard time accepting him now.

    Look at what you wrote here:

    Cherry: I still don’t like the way he did it because that made a different Michael of him, somebody that I cannot yet reconcile with the funny, warm, good side of him.

    See the fact that it Michael's drug use made a "different" Michael out of him for you, doesn't really mean that he was different. He was always the same person -- it just means that now you've seen him differently -- differently from how you were seeing him before, and you -- YOU don't like it. So this is a problem you have, with how you've defined Michael in your mind. It has nothing to do with who Michael really was at all.

    In my personal life, I can try to illustrate how this works. That's exactly what happened with the person I described that I had to release with love. I meet people who love me -- they go oh, my God, you're so talented and wonderful, so generous and kind and I love you -- this is in the first few days of meeting me/corresponding w/ me.

    My red flags ALWAYS go up immediately. Why? This person doesn't know me at all. When they are seeing me in such glowing terms, they are not giving themselves time to see the real person -- the whole person.

    I KNOW I'm not perfect, so when I start to try to be myself with this person, guess what happens?

    The person tries to get me to fit into their idea of who I am -- their mold. It becomes very frustrating because the person is not allowing you to be yourself. We might start to argue about little things -- how I think, what I believe ,as the person tells me "I'm wrong" for thinking these things. Or the person tells me how I should act, what I should say, the better way to be. The person doesn't want to see me as I am.

    So I KNOW me, not being anywhere close to a celebrity experiencing this, that Michael ALWAYS experienced this. Before people even met Michael they had a whole idea in their mind of who he was. And this idea of who he was very important to them. They would not want to let it go and be disappointed.

    It starts out as you described initially and this happens even in romantic relationships. You meet a person and WOW you are so attracted to them -- the honey moon stage. It takes about three months for you to start seeing the whole person, not just the wonderful qualities that you were so attracted to. Many people get married during the honey moon stage and wake up and wonder who the hell they're married to!

    Cherry: That’s what I asked above, whether you meant that I have an idealized image of him because I really think I don’t. To me, people who have an idealized image of him think that he’s an angel, that he didn’t have any faults and never did wrong, that everything negative about him is lies and that he never had a person in the world who truly loved him. To me, that’s having an idealized image of him and I certainly don’t have that at all. I trashed him in my head, I hated him sometimes and felt sorry for it afterwards but that’s how it is. If I have any image in my head of Michael then it’s probably one that is worse than he actually was.

    Worst than he actually was/better than he actually was -- that's two sides of the same coin -- it's still not him!!!! :smile:

    See when you say these things:

    Cherry: As I said before, when I heard that he would not have had all the plastic surgery again if he could turn back time I felt so relieved and so good because of that. Is that strange? Maybe…

    Who felt better? YOU -- had nothing to do with Michael at all. You needed to hear that he regretted it so that you could feel better about who you thought he was. These things have nothing to do with who Michael was. It has everything to do with the person you see him as and what you need to believe about him to make YOU feel comfortable.

    In this case it sounds like you need to believe that he regretted the plastic surgery for you to feel better about him.

    Cherry: I mean I am sorry that he had this regret because I think regret is one of the worst feelings to have but still knowing that he saw that things could have been handled differently comforts me a great deal and I’m not ashamed to admit it. So knowing that he regrets his drug abuse would do the same for me and I could accept it more.

    I'm so glad you're not ashamed to admit your feelings, we can't change what we dont' acknowledge. It's the same with the drugs -- you're waiting to hear or learn something that will make YOU feel better about his drug use so you can accept it - it has nothing to do with him, or who he is at all.

    When we're in relationships with people who need us to be a certain way or say things to make them feel comfortable it becomes self-effacing for the other person -- meaning, that the other person CANNOT be themselves, because they always have to bend themselves into a pretzel to say the right thing, do the right thing to make the other person feel happy -- to be able to be accepted by the other person.

    Healthy relationships are not like that. In a healthy relationship we accept the other person no matter what.

    Cherry: You know, I did ask myself that. Why does it scare and disgust me so much? I think it has to do with my father and my general fear of losing control over yourself and hurting the people you love in that process.

    It doesn't surprise me to hear you/read you say this. In my personal opinion the root of that type of behavior I was describing above is a need to control. I have never met anyone who has had parent issues (and most of us do) that doesn't try to control the situation. Why? I want to control my relationships with people as an adult because I couldn't control my parents. IT feels safer to me, because not knowing what to expect from a person is too scary.

    Cherry: Well, that’s the thing, Michael on the one hand is not a real person in my life so I shouldn’t be so affected by everything anyway.

    Hmm, well let me share one thing with you. I forgave my mother for being a horrible person years ago, and when I did I felt free and like something had been lifted from my chest.

    Guess what? I was not free!!!! I no longer wrestled with HER but I continued to gravitate to people who were LIKE HER -- who had her same qualities and issues, and I tried to either change them, or get them to love me or be nicer to me or whatever it was that I used to do with her.

    When you have issues with your parents it takes a LONG TIME to heal from it. It takes about as long as it did to mess you up in the first place, so that's like what, 20 years?

    Cherry: I did go to counselling for half a year in 2006 and talked about my father…but it didn’t really help me.

    I don't even want to tell you how long I've gone to therapy!!!! So half a year -- nuh, uh, girl! You're only scratching the surface!!!!! :lol:

    Of course, I'm only sharing my thoughts and opinions. Only you can know for sure about you and you'll definitely find that out if you go to therapy so that's my hope and wish for you :heart:

    About Michael's mother -- I know it was a different era, but not all women were so passive -- my mother being one of them. Katherine didn't have to let Joseph take those boys on the road. She could have said, no, I don't want this for my children. She didn't even have to stay and take the abuse. Katherine's own parents were divorced. Of course, I understand why she made all the decisions she did, but she had other options -- she just didn't see them, and in doing so, she abandoned her children to Josephs usery and abuse, and she used them too.

    I remember in the movie, I don't know if this is a direct quote from her but Joseph said, I told you I'd get you to California, and she asked, You got me to California? No, me and having all those babies, that's what got us to California.

    I think both Joseph and Katherine saw the kids as their ticket to success. The both wanted to be stars -- Katherine a country singer and Joseph and singer as well, and they never made it. They were living their dreams vicariously through their children, which is an awful burden to place on any child.

  11. CherryLeigh says:

    Oh, I know what is was, hold on (the last time, I promise):

    Sabine: Okay, I read your whole response, and before I speak to particular things that you said, I want to explain about idealization.When you idealize someone, disappointment is always around the corner.There is no idealization without devaluation. So yes, I think you might have an idealized vision of who Michael is and that is why you’re having a hard time accepting him now.Look at what you wrote here:See the fact that it Michael’s drug use made a “different” Michael out of him for you, doesn’t really mean that he was different.He was always the same person — it just means that now you’ve seen him differently — differently from how you were seeing him before, and you — YOU don’t like it.So this is a problem you have, with how you’ve defined Michael in your mind.It has nothing to do with who Michael really was at all.

    Well, I actually meant that when a person is drunk or high on drugs they are not their “normal” self and it changes them for as long as they are in that state. Some people become more open, some aggressive, some very friendly and still others become very quiet.

    I still don’t think that I have an idealized version of Michael in my head and if so then it’s because I read his own autobiography and many interview with him and in the beginning really believed everything he said there and how he presented himself there. I mean, I know now that not everything was as nice as he describes it but the fact that some people have the image of him that he hates drugs, that he doesn’t curse and so on is due to the fact that he propagated it. I didn’t create it myself, I took what he gave me. Why is it his fans job to then go and find out where he lied? He could have just told the truth or said nothing from the beginning. So my shock about his drug use really derives from the fact that I read his book last year and thought, wow, back then he still had ideals and values and opinions about certain things but he threw them away later on, at least where drugs are concerned and that is my main issue. So my point is it has something to do with how he presented himself and how this affected the image I have of him. I didn’t create it from nothing, I took what was there or seemed to be there because he showed it that way.
    I mean, you are of course right, it also has everything to do with ME but I just want to make you understand where that came from.

    Sabine: I meet people who love me — they go oh, my God, you’re so talented and wonderful, so generous and kind and I love you — this is in the first few days of meeting me/corresponding w/ me.My red flags ALWAYS go up immediately.Why? This person doesn’t know me at all.When they are seeing me in such glowing terms, they are not giving themselves time to see the real person — the whole person.I KNOW I’m not perfect, so when I start to try to be myself with this person, guess what happens?The person tries to get me to fit into their idea of who I am — their mold. It becomes very frustrating because the person is not allowing you to be yourself.

    Oh, I think I know exactly what you’re talking about, it happens to me, too. I mean I don’t meet people who necessarily tell me that I’m great or that they like to be my friend but they let me know other ways that they like me and I notice immediately whether what they think of me is based in who I really am or based in who they think I am or who they want me to be. One time, I had a conversation with a guy, we talked about ourselves and what we like and so on. We had quite a few things in common concerning movies that we like and just creativity and art in general. All of a sudden he said “I’d like to hear how you sing, I’d like to see how you paint, I’d like to read how you write” and I said well, I can’t sing or paint and I haven’t written much yet. So just because we liked the same things and because he thought I was a nice person he expected me to be able to sing and paint because he wanted me to be able to do that so that I fit the image he had of me.
    I mean I AM a nice person but especially with guys it’s that they see me in glowing terms, too and I know that I cannot live up to that so I withdraw myself from them because I don’t want to see them disappointed with me. I try to be myself but somehow sometimes people have such high expectations of me all of a sudden just because they might have caught me in good moment but that’s not how I am all the time. So if that’s what you meant, I definitely hear you!

    Sabine: And this idea of who he was very important to them. They would not want to let it go and be disappointed.

    Yes, true. But I think that’s true for every fan of Michael. I mean even you have this idea of who he was and why he acted the way he did and you don’t want to let go of that either, do you?

    Sabine: Worst than he actually was/better than he actually was — that’s two sides of the same coin — it’s still not him!!!!

    I know, you’re right!

    Sabine: See when you say these things:
    Who felt better?YOU — had nothing to do with Michael at all. You needed to hear that he regretted it so that you could feel better about who you thought he was. These things have nothing to do with who Michael was.It has everything to do with the person you see him as and what you need to believe about him tomake YOU feel comfortable.In this case it sounds like you need to believe that he regretted the plastic surgery for you to feel better about him.

    Ugh…I’m cringing right now but yes, that’s the truth right there I guess. I needed to hear it so that I could feel better about what he did, true.

    Sabine: When we’re in relationships with people who need us to be a certain way or say things to make them feel comfortable it becomes self-effacing for the other person — meaning, that the other person CANNOT be themselves, because they always have to bend themselves into a pretzel to say the right thing, do the right thing to make the other person feel happy — to be able to be accepted by the other person.Healthy relationships are not like that.In a healthy relationship we accept the other person no matter what.

    So in other words you can never tell them when you think they are wrong for doing something because you have to accept it?

    Sabine: In my personal opinion the root of that type of behavior I was describing aboveis a need to control.I have never met anyone who has had parent issues (and most of us do) that doesn’t try to control the situation.Why? I want to control my relationships with people as an adult because I couldn’t control my parents.IT feels safer to me, because not knowing what to expect from a person is too scary.

    Totally! I hope I will never be too controlling though because I know people who are and it’s such a turn off.

    Sabine: When you have issues with your parents it takes a LONG TIME to heal from it. It takes about as long as it did to mess you up in the first place, so that’s like what, 20 years?

    Wow…that’s a long time. Did it take that long for you? Are you completely over it now? You don’t have to answer if it’s too personal.

    Sabine: I don’t even want to tell you how long I’ve gone to therapy!!!! So half a year — nuh, uh, girl!You’re only scratching the surface!!!!!

    .

    Well, I think what you have been through was 10 times worse than my experiences…
    I know 6 months wasn’t enough for me to heal from anything. I just wanted to see whether therapy in general works for me…I think it depends a lot on the therapist, too. With mine, I didn’t feel that I could really tell her everything or that she understood me.

    Sabine: About Michael’s mother — I know it was a different era, but not all women were so passive — my mother being one of them. Katherine didn’t have to let Joseph take those boys on the road.She could have said, no, I don’t want this for my children.She didn’t even have to stay and take the abuse. Katherine’s own parents were divorced.

    Of course, I understand why she made all the decisions she did, but she had other options — she just didn’t see them,

    Right, she didn’t have to. But you know what? Your words very much reminds me of what I wrote about Michael when we talked about Debbie or his life in general, I think you are doing the same thing right here.

    Of course I understand why Michael made all the decisions he did, but he had other options, too – he just didn’t see them.

    So the way you feel about Katherine here is exactly the same way I feel about Michael and about some of the decisions he made and it’s what I’ve been trying to explain to you all along.

    You understand what Katherine did but you don’t like it, exactly the same for me, I understand what lead Michael to do things but I don’t like it. You see that it’s the same feeling? So yeah, while Katherine’s decisions were more damaging to her children than Michael’s decisions were for his, I think his didn’t go undamaged either.

    But what is important to me right now is that you understand how I feel about Michael (not just concerning his kids though) because you feel the same way about Katherine: Understanding their making the decisions they made but thinking that they had other options, too – they just didn’t see them. The same principle.

    You might say that you have more reason to dislike what Katherine did than I have to dislike what Michael did but right now it’s just about you understanding my feeling, which I hope you do now.

  12. Sabine says:

    Cherry: I still don’t think that I have an idealized version of Michael in my head and if so then it’s because I read his own autobiography and many interview with him and in the beginning really believed everything he said there and how he presented himself there.

    Cherry, do you know how long it takes to get to know someone? A life time!

    Talk to a married couple and you will hear them say, even after several years of being married, they are still learning about their spouse. Some learn more about their spouse and end up divorcing.

    First of all, it has to be understood, people are ALWAYS changing -- we grow, we learn, we react to our environment, we develop coping mechanisms and habits, we get over our coping mechanisms (hopefully) and our bad habits. We lose weight, gain weight, go to school, change careers.

    So for a person to hold another to a "presentation" they made of themselves 20, 30 years ago is not only unfair, it's kind of naive, too.

    Cherry: I mean, I know now that not everything was as nice as he describes it but the fact that some people have the image of him that he hates drugs, that he doesn’t curse and so on is due to the fact that he propagated it. I didn’t create it myself, I took what he gave me. Why is it his fans job to then go and find out where he lied?

    If I say I hate drugs, and I don't believe in taking them (and by the way, I do) but I get into an accident and I'm in severe pain and the doctor prescribes me drugs that I then become hooked on and I need to go to rehab to get off of it, am I a liar?

    Nooooo, nooooo, I don't think so! I've just gone through a life experience -- and I believe, being a spiritual person, that things like that happen to people with rigid ideals so that God can teach them to be more understanding and open.

    After an experience like that, the intolerance I've had and lack of understanding I've had for those with drug addictions goes away. Why? Because I've been through it. :heart:

    Cherry: He could have just told the truth or said nothing from the beginning.

    See but this type of thinking, Cherry -- that's controlling, honey. That's telling Michael what he should have done and what behavior was best for him -- but you were not in his shoes, living his life, so you can't say that. You don't have the right.

    Cherry: So my shock about his drug use really derives from the fact that I read his book last year and thought, wow, back then he still had ideals and values and opinions about certain things but he threw them away later on, at least where drugs are concerned and that is my main issue. So my point is it has something to do with how he presented himself and how this affected the image I have of him. I didn’t create it from nothing, I took what was there or seemed to be there because he showed it that way.

    I like the words you used there: I didn't create it from nothing. Who created it? YOU. You took some words in a book written years ago and you said to yourself: This is who Michael is. And you've held onto it -- Michael changed, grew, responded to his life experiences, adapted and your image of Michael did not.

    Cherry: I mean, you are of course right, it also has everything to do with ME but I just want to make you understand where that came from.

    I think I understand but the question is do you understand me :wink:

    Cherry: I mean I AM a nice person but especially with guys it’s that they see me in glowing terms, too and I know that I cannot live up to that so I withdraw myself from them because I don’t want to see them disappointed with me. I try to be myself but somehow sometimes people have such high expectations of me all of a sudden justbecause they might have caught me in good moment but that’s not how I am all the time. So if that’s what you meant, I definitely hear you!

    I LOVE the last line that you wrote. Think of Michael's book, or an interview you read or saw, an article as catching him in his "good moments" -- then think how it feels to have everyone expecting you to be like that ALL THE TIME.

    You'd withdraw, right? It's too much of a burden, right? But Michael could never withdraw -- the world would not let him. Now think how that feels? Not being able to withdraw. How would you cope?

    Cherry: Yes, true. But I think that’s true for every fan of Michael. I mean even you have this idea of who he was and why he acted the way he did and you don’t want to let go of that either, do you?

    No, personally I don't have an idea of Michael that I'm "holding on to" and don't want to let go. I take Michael as he is. When I read things that seem contradictory or don't fit into the image I have of him I first of all, determine in my mind if I believe it.

    If I believe it's true, then I just try to understand it. Instead of trying to make the Michael in my mind fit the information I've received, I instead try to find a way to incorporate the information I've received into the Michael I know and love.

    I don't draw conclusions and say, for example, OMG, Michael took drugs, that means he is now this person.

    I instead say, Okay, Michael took drugs. I know he is a spiritually strong person. Why would a spiritually sound, morally strong, loving, kind, health conscious person like Michael who is averse to taking drugs end up addicted to it? My answer to myself is: Something must have happened.
    I ask myself, What happened. I then look at his life. Well, there you go. To me its simple and understandable.

    Sabine: When we’re in relationships with people who need us to be a certain way or say things to make them feel comfortable it becomes self-effacing for the other person — meaning, that the other person CANNOT be themselves, because they always have to bend themselves into a pretzel to say the right thing, do the right thing to make the other person feel happy — to be able to be accepted by the other person.Healthy relationships are not like that.In a healthy relationship we accept the other person no matter what.

    Cherry: So in other words you can never tell them when you think they are wrong for doing something because you have to accept it?

    No, absolutely not, that's unhealthy to never tell a person who you feel. But you should only tell them once, to inform them, and then you decide whether you can accept it or not. To tell them more than once is to try to change and control them.

    IMO, this is how it works. Say you and I are getting to know each other. You had a father that did drugs, you hate it and I'm an addict. You find this out after getting to know me but you like lots of other things about me.

    So you tell me that you don't like the fact that I get high. It bothers you and you really wish I'd stop for a whole number of very good reasons.

    My response is I like to get high; it relaxes me; I put up with a bunch of shit all day long and I need it.

    So now, this is where you are. You have to decide whether you, Cherry, can be Sabine's friend even though she likes to get high. You have no right to demand that Sabine stop taking drugs to make YOU feel better. You may be absolutely right that drugs are detrimental to Sabine's health and that she's wasting her time getting high, but Sabine doesn't feel that way, and you cannot MAKE her feel the way you want her to feel or do what you want to do -- to ask her to do so is disrespectful and treating her like a child. If you really respected Sabine you'd want her to make the healthy decision to not get high for herself, not for you.

    Cherry: Totally! I hope I will never be too controlling though because I know people who are and it’s such a turn off.

    I used to be very controlling, and the best thing that happened to me is I got involved with a controlling man. I learned a long time ago the theory that, and I believe it's true, the people you meet, that piss you off, do so because they remind you of yourself in some way. The trick is to figure out how. Once I came face to face with my mirror -- this controlling man, and saw how it felt to be in a relationship with such a person I promised never to do that to another person because I knew how it felt and i didn't like it.

    Sabine: When you have issues with your parents it takes a LONG TIME to heal from it. It takes about as long as it did to mess you up in the first place, so that’s like what, 20 years?

    Cherry: Wow…that’s a long time. Did it take that long for you? Are you completely over it now? You don’t have to answer if it’s too personal.

    :lol: Well I'm only 38 years old, so it hasn't been 20 years for me yet, but honestly, I don't think you ever "get over it". I think you learn from it and grow, but it's very painful to be treated badly by your parents. It changes the person you are permanently. Only you, though, can decide whether the change will be for the better or the worst.

    Cherry: Well, I think what you have been through was 10 times worse than my experiences…

    Pain is pain is pain, so you can't compare it and say, oh, this was worst. It only matters what the person felt. So if I was molested and I am traumatized by it, and you were abandoned and you're traumatized from it -- emotionally it's the same thing.

    Cherry: I know 6 months wasn’t enough for me to heal from anything. I just wanted to see whether therapy in general works for me…I think it depends a lot on the therapist, too. With mine, I didn’t feel that I could really tell her everything or that she understood me.

    Yes, you have to find a good therapist. There's a lot of crazy ones with serious issues, let me tell you!!!! So it is important to find a healthy one who "fits" you, so to speak. I've been really lucky. I love my therapist. She rocks!

    Cherry: Right, she didn’t have to. But you know what? Your words very much reminds me of what I wrote about Michael when we talked about Debbie or his life in general, I think you are doing the same thing right here.

    Of course I understand why Michael made all the decisions he did, but he had other options, too – he just didn’t see them.

    So the way you feel about Katherine here is exactly the same way I feel about Michael and about some of the decisions he made and it’s what I’ve been trying to explain to you all along. . . . You understand what Katherine did but you don’t like it, exactly the same for me, I understand what lead Michael to do things but I don’t like it. You see that it’s the same feeling?

    Well, I agree Michael made lots of mistakes, I think the difference is that you are angry with Michael for his mistakes and I'm not angry with Katherine.

    Katherine is still, I think in a lot of denial, she made huge mistakes with her kids and it frustrates the hell out of me that she won't admit that Joseph abused her and the kids -- but I still like her. She's a very nice, sweet, gentle person with great qualities and Michael inherited them from her. And he also loved her so much, and that's such a beautiful thing, to see that kind of love from mother to son. She's very devoted to her children, which is admirable. I'll never forget how she went to court every single day. My mother would tell me to fend for myself!!!!

    So I see all of Katherine, the good and the bad, and it doesn't make me like her more or less. I just think she's a woman with issues, and so am I. :heart:

    Cherry: But what is important to me right now is that you understand how I feel about Michael (not just concerning his kids though) because you feel the same way about Katherine: Understanding their making the decisions they made but thinking that they had other options, too – they just didn’t see them. The same principle.

    I do understand you on this point and I agree with you, too.

  13. CherryLeigh says:

    Sabine: we grow, we learn, we react to our environment, we develop coping mechanisms and habits, we get over our coping mechanisms (hopefully) and our bad habits. We lose weight, gain weight, go to school, change careers.So for a person to hold another to a “presentation” they made of themselves 20, 30 years ago is not only unfair, it’s kind of naive, too.

    I know, you are right and I agree with you. I agree with a lot of the things you wrote here in general. I don’t know why I’m not feeling better yet. I just need to let all you said simmer for a while…I’m full of conflicting thoughts right now. I know you are right but I also just want to hear that I am right, too, at least a bit…

    Remember when I told you how my mind just takes over and I can’t control my thoughts? It feels as if I know what you explain above but something inside of me doesn’t think so, doesn’t accept it. I’m standing in my own way.

    Sabine: See but this type of thinking, Cherry — that’s controlling, honey.That’s telling Michael what he should have done and what behavior was best for him — but you were not in his shoes living his life, so you can’t say that.You don’t have the right.

    I know.

    Sabine: I like the words you used there: I didn’t create it from nothing.Who created it?YOU.

    Well, I don’t think it’s just that easy. He created an image for him, you can’t deny that and you also can’t deny that it is apparently quite different from how he was in real life concerning cursing, drinking, his high voice…he and his management sometimes spread stories about him just to keep that air of mystery. Unfortunately it kind of backfired on him often.

    I mean I’m above all this, I know Michael had a deep voice, he cursed, he drank alcohol and he often was a lot less weird than the world thought but in the beginning, when you just get to know him it’s not that easy to accept that you have been fooled by him. As I said, I can laugh about these issues now but I think to a certain degree it’s understandable to want to hold on to the image he presented of himself in his book and being somewhat disappointed to find out that it’s not that in real life.

    Sabine: You took some words in a book written years ago and you said to yourself:This is who Michael is. And you’ve held onto it — Michael changed, grew, responded to his life experiences, adapted and your image of Michael did not.

    Yeah, you’re right, definitely. But I think at the time he wrote that he pretty much still was that way. To go from that to a drug addiction in 1993 is understandable when looking at what happened in between, still it doesn’t make me wish less that things could have different or the way they were before.

    Sabine: I think I understand but the question is do you understand me

    I’m not always sure I do but you are older and wiser than me so I guess I’m not at that point where I understand everything you say even though it makes sense to me.

    I LOVE the last line that you wrote. Think of Michael’s book, or an interview you read or saw, and article as catching him in his “good moments” — then think how it feels to have everyone expecting you to be like that ALL THE TIME.You’d withdraw, right?It’s too much of a burden, right?But Michael could never withdraw — the world would not let him.Now think how that feels? How would you cope?

    God, you are right. I actually really never saw things like that, believe it or not. Yes, looking at it that way, it’s no wonder Michael withdrew from some people in his life.

    Sabine: No, personally I don’t have an idea of Michael that I’m “holding on to” and don’t want to let go.

    I think you actually do have an idea that you’re not letting go of, for example concerning Tatiana and the discussion that is going on about her and Michael right now.
    You hold on to the idea that Michael didn’t like her, that she overstepped the borders way too far, that he couldn’t cope with that and therefore didn’t speak to her afterwards and that he had a girlfriend at the time. I think it’s true for everybody here and for every fan in general that we have ideas about Michael and it has to be that way because none of us knew him personally. Still, we feel that we do and that feeling is based on the things we think about him. And imo, we’re holding on those things, especially when other fans challenge them.

    Sabine: I take Michael as he is.

    I think you can’t really say that because none of us know who he really was all the time. “As he is” is rather your image of how he is and even if it was really close to reality, it can be 100% accurate.

    Sabine: Instead of trying to make the Michael in my mind fit the information I’ve received, I instead try to find a way to incorporate the information I’ve received into the Michael I know and love.

    Yes! Yes, yes, yes! You are so right and good for doing that! Wow…And believe me or not, that’s what I’ve been telling myself I need to do, honestly. It’s soooo frustrating, you can’t believe it: I know WHAT to do I just can’t seem to simply do it. In the past I’ve gotten over this crisis after a few days or weeks, this time it seems I can’t get out the easy way. I have to go through it slowly and painfully maybe so that this time will be the last.

    Sabine: So I ask myself:Why would a spiritually sound, morally strong, loving, kind, health conscious person like Michael who is averse to taking drugs end up addicted to it.My answer to myself is:Something must have happened.I ask myself, What happened.I then look at his life.Well, there you go.To me its simple and understandable.

    It is actually THAT simple, I know! It’s that easy for many people, myself unfortunately not yet included but I will get there! But don’t get me wrong, for many of the things that happened to him I do understand that he took medication to ease the pain and cope better with it all, that’s not my point. I’m not blaming him for every painkiller or sleeping pill he ever took. Actually, I just can’t deal with the really dangerous, life-threatening situations that he sometimes was in, that it got that far still scares me. I feel horrible every time I read something about that, also horrible for him of course. But we already spoke about that so…

    Sabine: You have to decide whether you, Cherry, can be Sabine’s friend even though she likes to get high. You have no right to demand that Sabine stop taking drugs to make YOU feel better.

    Nooo, I know! I’m not doing that, at least not on purpose. I mean Michael is dead while I’m having all these thoughts and right now I’m not demanding anything from him anymore. I just wish that in the past things would have been different and he hadn’t taken all of the stuff he had. It’s stupid to do that, I know. But is it so hard to understand that I just cringe and feel bad when I see Michael the way he was at MSQ 2001? You don’t like that either you said. The difference is that it doesn’t make you like him less, I know…that’s the big difference. *sighs*

    Sabine: If you really respected Sabine you’d want her to make the healthy decision to not get high for herself, not for you.

    I know! I want for HIM to have seen that, ME understanding it’s bad would not have helped him, wouldn’t have made any difference for him, sad but true. That is what hurts all friends and family members of addicts, they worry and worry and beg and plead but the other person still doesn’t stop, not even for YOU, who loves them so much. That hurts.

    I wish Michael could have seen that for HIMSELF it was bad and thus it also affected his children and so on. The very fact that he did NOT see it that way IS what makes me so sad about everything. It’s messed up and dramatic, I know.

    I want my father to find the strength to get his life back on track for HIM, so that he’s better and happier again. But I also want it for me so that I don’t have to worry about him anymore.
    So in that sense I also want it for me that Michael had seen that taking too much drugs is bad for him, so that I can stop thinking about it, so that I can stop disliking him for not having seen it, this is true, you are right! And it’s wrong to think that way but if somebody else came to me and told me that they felt that way, I would understand and accord them the same sort of understanding that I have and still try to develop for Michael but then also give them advice how to work on that just like you did for me.

    Sabine: Well, I agree Michael made lots of mistakes, I think the difference is that you are angry with Michael for his mistakes and I’m not angry with Katherine.

    RIGHT!!!! I realized that as soon as I had posted my message. That is the big, very important difference between us. I so envy you for being there, you have no idea.

    Sabine: Katherine is still, I think in a lot of denial, she made huge mistakes with her kids and it frustrates the hell out of me that she won’t admit that Joseph abused her and the kids

    Word! The whole family denies it and doesn’t realize how this makes Michael look. The brothers on TV saying Michael didn’t understand, he was too young, it wasn’t abuse…God! As much as I like some of the family members on their own, together they are such a mess sometimes and just unbelievable.

    Sabine: — but I still like her.She’s a very nice, sweet, gentle person with great qualities and Michael inherited them from her.And he also loved her so much, and that’s such a beautiful thing, to see that kind of love from mother to son.

    True! You still like her. I still like Michael of course, I do! And yes, he did inherit those qualities from her so he’s a very likeable person in general.

    Sabine: So I see all of Katherine, the good and the bad, and it doesn’t make me like her more or less.

    I so admire you for that, really. Good things about Michael make me like him more, bad things, or actually “just” all the drug abuse things make me dislike him more. I’m such a hypocrite, I know. :-/ Working on it.

    Sabine: I do understand you on this point and I agree with you, too.

    Thank God! :wink: And thank you!

    :heart:

  14. Sabine says:

    Cherry, I actually admire YOU and this conversation that we're having. You think I'm wise! Ha!!!! I know nothing! LOL! That's how I get through life -- it's how I stay open to learning. Really, I'm not trying to butter you up, do you know how many grown, mature women CANNOT -- WILL NOT have this conversation????

    Look at the Jackson family! They continue to say that Joseph did not abuse them and make Michael look like an ass -- not one of them will admit to the abuse -- they can't!

    Believe me you are a lot more honest and stronger than they'll ever be, and you'll be fine. As long as a person keeps asking themselves questions and are brave enough and honest enough to hear the answer whether it comes from inside of them or outside of them, they will be fine.

    Cherry: I know, you are right and I agree with you. I agree with a lot of the things you wrote here in general. I don’t know why I’m not feeling better yet. I just need to let all you said simmer for a while…I’m full of conflicting thoughts right now. I know you are right but I also just want to hear that I am right, too, at least a bit…

    Be kind and patient with yourself. just sit with it and let it develop however it will develop with you, I think that's the key, and if you're too upset, do something nice for yourself, have an ice cream or a bath. Do what you would do for a friend or a child, for yourself to help yourself feel better.

    Cherry: Remember when I told you how my mind just takes over and I can’t control my thoughts? It feels as if I know what you explain above but something inside of me doesn’t think so, doesn’t accept it. I’m standing in my own way

    Okay confession: Yeah, I know, easier said than done.

    When my mind takes over, like you're describing, I just think and think and drive myself crazy!!!!

    Sabine: See but this type of thinking, Cherry — that’s controlling, honey.That’s telling Michael what he should have done and what behavior was best for him — but you were not in his shoes living his life, so you can’t say that.You don’t have the right.

    Cherry: I know.

    :heart: And thank you for saying so, for being strong enough and honest enough -- that's a wonderful quality! :wub:

    Sabine: I think I understand but the question is do you understand me

    Cherry: I’m not always sure I do but you are older and wiser than me so I guess I’m not at that point where I understand everything you say even though it makes sense to me.

    I admit I'm older -- but wiser? :wassat: I'm not so sure about that! Let's just say I read a lot!!! :biggrin:

    Sabine: I LOVE the last line that you wrote. Think of Michael’s book, or an interview you read or saw, and article as catching him in his “good moments” — then think how it feels to have everyone expecting you to be like that ALL THE TIME.You’d withdraw, right?It’s too much of a burden, right?But Michael could never withdraw — the world would not let him.Now think how that feels? How would you cope?

    Cherry: God, you are right. I actually really never saw things like that, believe it or not. Yes, looking at it that way, it’s no wonder Michael withdrew from some people in his life.

    So you can see it right? He wasn't "fooling" you or anyone, that was just him at his best -- a part of him. Not all of him but his best face.

    That's what the world wants, too, your best face. Believe me, the world doesn't want to see stars as human. They want to see them as super human and glorify them, and then when their human side comes out, they crucify them for not being perfect. It's a horrible unfair game we play with people we admire. And smart stars, who are grounded and have healthy esteem understand that, so they stay out of the limelight and realize that the cheers and love that they get from fans, though its fun and feeds their ego is not real -- its not really for them, the real person but for the image, the created "star".

    Sabine: No, personally I don’t have an idea of Michael that I’m “holding on to” and don’t want to let go.

    Cherry: I think you actually do have an idea that you’re not letting go of, for example concerning Tatiana and the discussion that is going on about her and Michael right now. You hold on to the idea that Michael didn’t like her, that she overstepped the borders way too far, that he couldn’t cope with that and therefore didn’t speak to her afterwards and that he had a girlfriend at the time. I think it’s true for everybody here and for every fan in general that we have ideas about Michael and it has to be that way because none of us knew him personally. Still, we feel that we do and that feeling is based on the things we think about him. And imo, we’re holding on those things, especially when other fans challenge them.

    Um that's actually not a good example. You're talking about things I believed about Tatiana and what I believe about why Michael reacted to her in the way he did -- that's not about who I believe Michael was as a person.

    I'm not saying, I don't think Michael liked Tatiana because he wouldn't treat a person that he liked the way he treated Tatiana; he's not like that.

    I'm saying that I don't think Michael liked Tatiana because of how he treated her. It's hard to understand, maybe?

    I look at the behavior and ask myself why would sweet, nice loving Michael fire this girl for kissing him?

    Well, the clear and simple answer is because he didn't like her like that.

    IF we assume that he liked her, something he never said, then we have to create all of these rationalizations and excuses to make that fit -- to make Michael's personality fit and match the behavior.

    Michael said to Schumuley how a girl knows he's not interested in her, after she's got the wrong impression is when he's running half way around the world -- he stopped speaking to Tatitana and fired her.

    Michael said he can only play a scene in a video with a girl and be so sexy if he's attracted to her -- so yes, he was attracted to Tatitana.

    Michael said but sometimes the girls get the wrong impression and that has put him in a lot of trouble.

    There you go -- Tatiana. See, I don't have to stretch or create excuses for his behavior, I can take him at his word.

    Sabine: I take Michael as he is.

    Cherry: I think you can’t really say that because none of us know who he really was all the time. “As he is” is rather your image of how he is and even if it was really close to reality, it can be 100% accurate.

    When I say I take Michael is I mean I don't have a labeled box that says: This is Michael. What I have is like a basket, and in it are all these qualities I attribute to Michael, and I can add to that basket or take away, depending on the circumstance and whatever, and it's still Michael.
    So for example, today, I take out nice and kind, because Michael fired a girl for kissing him. It's still Michael. There's a reason why he fired her. Tomorrow, when Michael gives a woman VIP passes to a show, I put back nice and kind. Still Michael. The qualities comes and go, change but the core essence is still Michael.

    Sabine: Instead of trying to make the Michael in my mind fit the information I’ve received, I instead try to find a way to incorporate the information I’ve received into the Michael I know and love.

    Cherry: Yes! Yes, yes, yes! You are so right and good for doing that! Wow…And believe me or not, that’s what I’ve been telling myself I need to do, honestly. It’s soooo frustrating, you can’t believe it: I know WHAT to do I just can’t seem to simply do it. In the past I’ve gotten over this crisis after a few days or weeks, this time it seems I can’t get out the easy way. I have to go through it slowly and painfully maybe so that this time will be the last.

    It's a skill, it takes time, so be easy on yourself. It takes being open minded and having compassion and always trying to understand the other person. For me it comes naturally, I've always been like that which is why people like to talk to me. I just don't judge others -- I see the whole thing. For me people are fascinating characters and life is a whole big story, that's always changing :smile:

    Cherry: It’s that easy for many people, myself unfortunately not yet included but I will get there!

    You know what's the amazing and beautiful thing about what we're doing right now? You're getting there RIGHT NOW! It doesn't feel that way or seem that way, but that is exactly what is happening. That's the amazing thing about open and honest dialogue.

    Cherry: But is it so hard to understand that I just cringe and feel bad when I see Michael the way he was at MSQ 2001? You don’t like that either you said. The difference is that it doesn’t make you like him less, I know…that’s the big difference. *sighs*

    Oh, but I cringe too, Cherry! OMG, it hurts my heart!!! :cwy:
    So I take good care of myself, and I don't look at those pictures!!!! Look around CCC, do you see any? I'm not in denial -- I know what he was like then, what he looked like, what he was going through. I take it in small measures because it makes me too sad. :sad:

    Cherry: I know! I want for HIM to have seen that, ME understanding it’s bad would not have helped him, wouldn’t have made any difference for him, sad but true. That is what hurts all friends and family members of addicts, they worry and worry and beg and plead but the other person still doesn’t stop, not even for YOU, who loves them so much. That hurts.

    Cherry, it does hurt! My family are in so much denial about their abusive ways, it's the same thing. They are so hurtful and they won't see it. But I read a book once, the mother had a son who was an addict. There's a movie about it, Basketball Diaries -- if you can, if it's not too painful watch it. There's a scene, when Leonardo DiCaprio, who plays the addict is banging out side of his mother's door asking to be let in, and his mother is inside CRYING, DYING but she is saying NO, and then he is cursing her out, calling her all kinds of bitches, but she is still saying no. Finally, he walks away and he hits ROCK BOTTOM -- does anything to get his drug.

    But you know what he says later on in life? That is the BEST thing his mother did for him. We have to let that person hit rock bottom so that they can do it for themselves.

    And yes, Cherry, the horror of it is sometimes people DIE in their addiction. They hit rock bottom and stay there. :sad:

    Cherry: I wish Michael could have seen that for HIMSELF it was bad and thus it also affected his children and so on. The very fact that he did NOT see it that way IS what makes me so sad about everything. It’s messed up and dramatic, I know.

    No, it's just human. But the truth is we can't save people from themselves, no matter how much we love them.

    Cherry: I want my father to find the strength to get his life back on track for HIM, so that he’s better and happier again. But I also want it for me so that I don’t have to worry about him anymore.

    I understand!!!! My children's father -- his brother has been on drugs all his life, in and out of rehab you name it. He has a son who he's abandoned, and his son is now in law school, and doing so well, but I see the pain in his eyes. His father will NEVER get better I don't think. :sad:

    Cherry: So in that sense I also want it for me that Michael had seen that taking too much drugs is bad for him, so that I can stop thinking about it, so that I can stop disliking him for not having seen it, this is true, you are right! And it’s wrong to think that way but if somebody else came to me and told me that they felt that way, I would understand and accord them the same sort of understanding that I have and still try to develop for Michael but then also give them advice how to work on that just like you did for me.

    Feelings are not wrong, honey, they just are. Give yourself permission to feel whatever you feel. You have those feelings for a reason. Just try and understand why.

    Sabine: Well, I agree Michael made lots of mistakes, I think the difference is that you are angry with Michael for his mistakes and I’m not angry with Katherine.

    Cherry: RIGHT!!!! I realized that as soon as I had posted my message. That is the big, very important difference between us. I so envy you for being there, you have no idea.

    You'll get there -- you're already half way there! :wub:

    Cherry: Word! The whole family denies it and doesn’t realize how this makes Michael look. The brothers on TV saying Michael didn’t understand, he was too young, it wasn’t abuse…God! As much as I like some of the family members on their own, together they are such a mess sometimes and just unbelievable.

    OMG! I so agree! I hate when they say that the abuse didn't happen -- making Michael look like a liar!

    Cherry: I so admire you for that, really. Good things about Michael make me like him more, bad things, or actually “just” all the drug abuse things make me dislike him more. I’m such a hypocrite, I know. :-/ Working on it.

    Okay, since we're having this conversation, and look at the topic of the story, I've been thinking, how am I like Cherry, what do I have to learn from her!!!!

    So here is where I think we're alike -- you used Tatiana, but you should have used Debbie! :wink:

    I am very angry at Debbie for using and enabling Michael.

    I hate users and abusers -- see this is my issue. I didn't have a drug addict Dad, I have an abusive Dad. I didn't have a drug addict Mom, I have a user Mom. So whenever I see that behavior OMG!

    :angry:

    But the truth is Debbie behaved that way for a reason, and she is, I'm sure, just as damaged and hurt as Michael was. Many of the things you said are true, she probably thought she could save him from his miserable marriage and that she was going to ride in on her white horse with her golden womb and save the day. :sick:

    (Sorry, I can't help myself.)

    She said in her court transcripts, when she was giving up parental rights to the children that she felt she didn't have anything to give them.

    :sad: See the low self esteem? She never tried to contact them or see them. She gave up on herself!

    Motherhood is like the greatest gift, the greatest experience, one of them, that a woman can ever have. She had the chance twice and she robbed herself of it.

    She probably has never felt good about herself. So whenever I try -- and I have to try really freakin' hard!!!!

    :pinch:

    I can have compassion and understanding for Debbie!

    But I don't want to cause I don't like her behavior!!!!

    I hate selfishness and I hate when someone uses other people to build up their ownself, so I have to keep working on that -- trying to see the pain behind the dysfunctional hateful, nasty, cruel, mean, heartless, disgusting, dishonest . . . . .

    :devil:

    behavior!

    :lol: :silly: :tongue:

    So you see Cherry, we both have work to do! :heart:

    Cherry: Thank God! :wink: And thank you!

    No, thank you! :heart:

  15. CherryLeigh says:

    Hi Sabine! Everybody’s so excited about the new chapter and what’s going to happen next, myself included but I also wanted to look at what you last wrote here because a few days have passed and I think I’m starting to feel better so that usually makes you look at things differently…

    I actually loved the conversation we had although it was not easy for me. But I want to thank you for listening to me and taking the time to really talk to me and give me advice.

    Cherry, I actually admire YOU and this conversation that we’re having.You think I’m wise! Ha!!!!I know nothing!LOL!That’s how I get through life — it’s how I stay open to learning.Really, I’m not trying to butter you up, do you know how many grown, mature women CANNOT — WILL NOT have this conversation????

    Thank you for saying that. I mean, it’s not easy to be so honest to others and especially to yourself but I needed to get to the bottom of things once and for all. I’m not saying having this “fit” will never happen to me again; I thought so before and it always came back…but at least for me it’s always best to talk about it. So thank you again for giving me that opportunity, I don’t really have it elsewhere in my life.

    Believe me you are a lot more honest and stronger than they’ll ever be, and you’ll be fine.

    Thank you, coming from you, this really means something to me.

    Be kind and patient with yourself.just sit with it and let it develop however it will develop with you, I think that’s the key, and if you’re too upset, do something nice for yourself, have an icecream or a bath.Do what you would do for a friend or a child, for yourselfto help yourself feel better.

    I will try that but honestly, sometimes this captures me so much that nothing seems to give me joy unless I have analyzed and solved the problem…Since nothing has ever captured me the way Michael did, nothing feels as good as it should when I’m not in tune with myself due to not being in tune with him. The last year of my life has been so much about him that having him in my heart became the equivalent of feeling good and balanced. When I’m upset about something I read or heard about him and then become downright depressed about that I’m truly not being myself, I’m unhappy not only where Michael is concerned, it spreads and infects my whole mood, no matter where I am or with whom, even though they don’t have anything to do with Michael.
    I told you, I am extreme when it comes to Michael…I’m not sure it’s healthy feeling that way, I guess it’s not but that’s the way it is. I need him to be happy. Or, in other words, when he is not in my heart the way he usually is, the way he should be, I can’t be happy. :sad:

    Okay confession:Yeah, I know, easier said than done.When my mind takes over, like you’re describing, I just think and think and drive myself crazy!!!

    Thank you for saying that. :smile: God, me too!! I think and worry and analyze way too much.

    So you can see it right?He wasn’t “fooling” you or anyone, that was just him at his best — apart of him.

    Yes, I see that now, thank you for explaining it to me again! Actually,I just had to look at myself in order to understand that…

    Not all of him but his best face.That’s what the world wants, too, your best face.Believe me, the world doesn’t want to see stars as human.They want to see them as super human and glorify them, and then when their human side comes out, they crucify them for not being perfect.It’s a horrible unfair game we play with people we admire.

    Totally, Michael’s crucification certainly was the worst I’ve ever seen or heard of for any celebrity/public person in the history of the world almost. And to think that I can’t say I didn’t do that to him is horrible!

    Um that’s actually not a good example. You’re talking about things I believed about Tatiana and what I believe about why Michael reacted to her in the way he did — that’s not about who I believe Michael was as a person.

    Remember when I wondered why Michael didn’t at least call Tatiana and explain things a bit more? So here I was referring to the way you explained to me why he didn’t call Tatiana after she was fired.
    Imo you talked about the things you believed about Michael in order to show me why it would be normal or logical and even alright for him not to call Tatiana or contact her anymore.

    I look at the behavior and ask myself why would sweet, nice loving Michael fire this girl for kissing him?Well, the clear and simple answer is because he didn’t like her like that.IF we assume that he liked her, something he never said, then we have to create all of these rationalizations and excuses to make that fit — to make Michael’s personality fit and match the behavior.

    Very true, you are right. It’s actually so easy what you do, just look at his behavior but I can’t seem to do that, it doesn’t seem to be enough for me. My mind immediately starts working, assuming this, believing that…argh!

    Michael said he can only play a scene in a video with a girl and be so sexy if he’s attracted to her — so yes, he was attracted to Tatitana.Michael said but sometimes the girls get the wrong impression and that has put him in a lot of trouble.

    Right! But I think the fact that they get the wrong impression, that they believe what they would love to be true is understandable to me. If I had been Tatiana…I would have wanted to think Michael was attracted to me, too, and he surely was. But I think I would never have either kissed him on stage just like that or proposed doing that to him.

    What I have is like a basket, and in it are all these qualities I attribute to Michael, and I can add to that basket or take away, depending on the circumstance and whatever, and it’s still Michael.So for example, today, I take out nice and kind, because Michael fired a girl for kissing him.It’s still Michael.There’s a reason why he fired her.Tomorrow, when Michael gives a woman VIP passes to a show, I put back nice and kind.Still Michael.The qualities comes and go, change but the core essence is still Michael.

    God…I’m going to print this out and put one copy in my diary and another one under my pillow so I can read your words every night before I go to bed or at least every time I fall back into my old pattern of…you know.

    It’s a skill, it takes time, so be easy on yourself.It takes being open minded and having compassion and always trying to understand the other person.For me it comes naturally, I’ve always been like that which is why people like to talk to me.I just don’t judge others — I see the whole thing.For me people are fascinating characters and life is a whole big story, that’s always changing.

    You know, I thought I was that way, too. And I still think I am...But with Michael of all people, Michael, who I love so much I’m not always that way even though I want and try to be. I mean I’ve had weeks without any dark thought on the horizon. Thinking about his addiction or whatever didn’t hurt me, didn’t upset me, didn’t hinder me. As I said it comes and goes. But since we last spoke I’ve come to think that I should see it all as a learning process and that I should put as much effort into having compassion and understanding the people around me, the ones I care for, as I do for Michael. Loving and dealing with him and all the feelings I have thinking of him, good or bad, has taught me so much about myself, love and life already. I’m going to stay open, as you do, and turn bad things into opportunities for me to grow. If it doesn’t work right away, okay, I’ll keep trying. I’ll sit with it as you said and let it develop with me instead of fighting it.
    And I really mean that, I’m there right now, I feel better although I’m aware that it’s still quite fragile. God, I can’t believe it…I’ve spent a year discovering and loving Michael but my mind still gets me to waver sometimes. But I think this was also because I never really solved my problem, I just let it pass and was glad when I didn’t have to deal with it anymore…

    Oh, but I cringe too, Cherry!OMG, it hurts my heart!!! So I take good care of myself, and I don’t look at those pictures!!!!Look around CCC, do you see any?I’m not in denial — I know what he was like then, what he looked like, what he was going through.I take it in small measures because it makes me too sad.

    I know! It is very sad and it hurts. I try to take good care of myself, too. I’m not looking for those pictures or articles, I stumble over them but when I do I cannot turn away, so in that sense I’m not good to myself after all…But it’s just what you address here, denial or rather not wanting to deny anything. If I didn’t look at the pictures or read the articles I would feel as if was a hypocrite, only wanting to see the good things but not the bad ones. So my problem was/is also that I never allowed myself to feel bad when hearing such stories about him, I always thought it was wrong and bad to not like it, to not be able to deal with it.

    We have to let that person hit rock bottom so that they can do it for themselves.And yes, Cherry, the horror of it is sometimes people DIE in their addiction.They hit rock bottom and stay there.

    God, that’s so horrible. I don’t know the movie you were talking about and I’m not sure I’m going to see it in a long time. :smile: I am so surprised how much this whole topic affects me, I never knew before that it did because I didn’t really have to deal with it. When my father hit rock bottom, it wasn’t because of drugs…But it’so bad that people die in their addiction and there’s nothing you can do but it shouldn’t have happened, it didn’t have to happen…:cry:

    No, it’s just human.But the truth is we can’t save people from themselves, no matter how much we love them.

    My mom says the same and it’s true I guess but it’s hard to learn that lesson. I hope his children won’t go there one day…

    I understand!!!!My children’s father — his brother has been on drugs all his life, in and out of rehab you name it.He has a son who he’s abandoned, and his son is now in law school, and doing so well, but I see the pain in his eyes. His father will NEVER get better I don’t think

    Aw, all my love to him! Great that he’s doing so well!

    Give yourself permission to feel whatever you feel.You have those feelings for a reason.Just try and understand why.

    Yes! I am allowing them, thanks to you, really! I just haven’t figured out completely yet why I have them.

    You’ll get there — you’re already half way there.

    Thank you! Now it’s my turn to say that I don’t try to butter you up but your words and our conversation really gave me the courage to believe I can make it through…yes, I said “make it through”, it’s that serious to me. :wink:

    OMG!I so agree! I hate when they say that the abuse didn’t happen — making Michael look like a liar!

    Totally! I mean I guess with a certain age you get a different perspective on things and even Michael said that Joseph had changed throughout the years, had become softer…but it was hard for him to love that man, too. I guess that was because they have never really talked about it all, they have never reappraised the past and then Joseph “changed” and maybe Michael felt that now it was too late to talk about this, that now HE would be the bad person for bringing it up again.

    I hate users and abusers — see this is my issue.I didn’t have a drug addict Dad, I have an abusive Dad.I didn’t have a drug addict Mom, I have a user Mom.So whenever I see that behavior OMG!

    I understand. It’s what we hate in our parents that we hate in people in general although we still gravitate to people who make us deal with the same issues, right? But it also makes us want to be sooo different. Michael never laid a finger on his children, you would never use or abuse anyone and I would never emotionally abandon my children the way my father did.

    But the truth is Debbie behaved that way for a reason, and she is,I’m sure, just as damaged and hurt as Michael was.Many of the things you said are true, she probably thought she could save him from his miserable marriage and that she was going to ride in on her white horse with her golden womb and save the day.(Sorry, I can’t help myself.)

    :lol: That’s okay. Yes, I think she had her own issues and past do deal with. As I said, compassion and understanding for everyone, not only for Michael…

    So wheneverI try— and I have to try really freakin’ hard!!! I can have compassion and understanding for Debbie!

    So proud of you, Sabine!!! :wink:

    But I don’t want to cause I don’t like her behavior!!!!I hate selfishness and I hate when someone uses other people to build up their ownself, so I have to keep working on that — trying to see the pain behind the dysfunctional hateful, nasty, cruel, mean, heartless, disgusting, dishonest . . . So you see Cherry, we both have work to do

    Yes, so it seems. Thank you for being so open about that, too. You are not alone. :smile:

  16. Sabine says:

    Hey Cherry,

    I read your whole response earlier but I was sooooooo tired I had to crash girl. I just read it again and I'm going to respond more in paragraph fashion than point by point, but be assured I read everything.

    First of all, I am very touched and hunored

    :wink:

    that you'd find anything I've written useful and inspirational and helpful to your own journey of self growth. I really think that is why every soul is born, to grow and become a better person through our experiences. So I love to see people rise to the challenge of life.

    Cherry: The last year of my life has been so much about him that having him in my heart became the equivalent of feeling good and balanced. When I’m upset about something I read or heard about him and then become downright depressed about that I’m truly not being myself, I’m unhappy not only where Michael is concerned, it spreads and infects my whole mood, no matter where I am or with whom, even though they don’t have anything to do with Michael.
    I told you, I am extreme when it comes to Michael…I’m not sure it’s healthy feeling that way, I guess it’s not but that’s the way it is. I need him to be happy. Or, in other words, when he is not in my heart the way he usually is, the way he should be, I can’t be happy

    So I'd like to be very honest with you. No, I don't think this is healthy at all. It's obsessive. Think of it like this: It is as if, say Michael was here, you gave him a box with a switch on it, and you say, You're in charge of my happiness, okay? If you make me happy, I'll be happy. If you do or say something that upsets me, I'll be sad. So be good!

    Remember you wondered before whether you could agree with me that you were objectifying Michael.. Well, that's objectification. You've made him the barometer for your own feelings and your own life. Since no person can read another persons mind, he would have no idea what to say or what to do every minute of the day to make you happy. What a burden!!!! In real life a person would want to run away! No one can be responsible for another person's happiness, we have to be in charge of our own happiness.

    It's like you've assigned a script to Michael and said, be this for me, be that for me and I'll be happy. It's not fair to do that to anyone, and it is also an impossible task for any one person to accomplish --
    :biggrin: even someone as great as Michael!!!!!

    As I said, it doesn't give him space to be human, to be himself, to make mistakes, to have a bad day. It's bad enough making bad choices and upsetting the balance of your own life. I don't know about you, but when I make a mistake I feel horrible. But imagine being responsible for hundreds of thousands of people's happiness as well.

    A whole bunch of people yelling at the base of Michael's window "Don't fuck up your life okay, because if you, you're going to fuck up mine".

    :sad: :cwy: :pinch:

    Cherry: So my problem was/is also that I never allowed myself to feel bad when hearing such stories about him, I always thought it was wrong and bad to not like it, to not be able to deal with it. . . . .

    As an outsider looking in, I just want to share with you some themes that seem to come out in your responses to me. Take it if it's useful for you, discard it if it's not.

    I see the theme of:

    I'm have a negative feeling (that's the thought), therefore I am bad, wrong, defective (that's the belief). It translates into a unspoken subconscious rule, a message you were given as a child: To have negative feelings make me bad/wrong so I should NOT have them. It's not giving yourself permission to feel.
    I have bad feelings that make me bad (that's the thought), I don't want to be bad so I must stop them (that's the belief). The unspoken subconscious rule: Control my feelings at all costs.

    If you look at what you wrote here, maybe you can see it:

    Cherry: But with Michael of all people, Michael, who I love so much I’m not always that way even though I want and try to be. I mean I’ve had weeks without any dark thought on the horizon. Thinking about his addiction or whatever didn’t hurt me, didn’t upset me, didn’t hinder me. As I said it comes and goes. But since we last spoke I’ve come to think that I should see it all as a learning process and that I should put as much effort into having compassion and understanding the people around me, the ones I care for, as I do for Michael. Loving and dealing with him and all the feelings I have thinking of him, good or bad, has taught me so much about myself, love and life already. I’m going to stay open, as you do, and turn bad things into opportunities for me to grow. If it doesn’t work right away, okay, I’ll keep trying. I’ll sit with it as you said and let it develop with me instead of fighting it.
    And I really mean that, I’m there right now, I feel better although I’m aware that it’s still quite fragile. God, I can’t believe it…I’ve spent a year discovering and loving Michael but my mind still gets me to waver sometimes. But I think this was also because I never really solved my problem, I just let it pass and was glad when I didn’t have to deal with it anymore

    The words I've bolded all indicated to me, personally issues with a real need to control -- self control/control others. Something, as I said before that's quite natural considering your background -- but that will impair your ability to have close relationships with anyone because you'll always be trying to control your feelings and the other person's feelings -- that's just my opinion, not knowing much but what I see and feel (as much as I can see and feel in this medium).

    I think you're on the right track and you really hit the nail on the head when you said this: This line I think is key: Loving and dealing with him and all the feelings I have thinking of him, good or bad, has taught me so much about myself, love and life already

    I think your love affair with Michael . . .
    :wub:
    . . . all the strong emotions he's invoked in you, what you see in him, even the parts that you don't see, ( the parts you've projected onto him) and are angry about in him are really all about you.

    You are the feeler having the feelings; you are the thinker thinking the thoughts. This is your story and you're telling it to yourself :smile:
    So I see this as a great wonderful huge opportunity for your own self growth. I hope you take it this way and begin to see that really it's not about Michael at all.

    A little side line about Debbie:

    Cherry: It’s what we hate in our parents that we hate in people in general although we still gravitate to people who make us deal with the same issues, right? But it also makes us want to be sooo different. Michael never laid a finger on his children, you would never use or abuse anyone and I would never emotionally abandon my children the way my father did

    Yeah, we do gravitate to them and them to us, too. To learn the lessons we need to and grow, I think. I also believe it's Karma, and I know Michael said he thought that was bullshit, but I think he never got passed the surface understanding about Karma -- it's not about paying debts so much as it is about learning life lessons and spiritually growing.

    Cherry: That’s okay. Yes, I think she had her own issues and past do deal with. As I said, compassion and understanding for everyone, not only for Michael…

    I can, am able to when I refocus my mind have compassion for Debbie, the struggling hurting soul -- like I would for a murderer, a child molester, a person who abandons her/his children (which she has) or anyone who has done things consistently which hurt others.

    Remember the basket. I have a basket with Debbie's name on it, I've had to remove responsible, giving, generous and loving and I have never had opportunities to put those back in her basket, because her behavior hasn't supported those characteristics. In her basket remains user, opportunist, manipulator, selfish, and yes, low self esteem, self loathing, insecure -- I keep having to put those qualities in her basket so much so that it's stayed there and become her character -- and yes in there are some other good and probably more bad qualities that I don't even know about.

    So people like that, I have compassion for them frm AFAR -- I don't want anything to do with them because as you can see from Michael's life: THEY ARE TOXIC. They will, with their self hatred and internal negativity, ruin your life if given half the opportunity, that's because they hook up to you sort of like a gas tank and suck you dry until you have nothing left to give.

    I'm talking about the Arvisos, Chandlers, Murrays, Debbies, Mark Lesters, Thome, Thome, Schmuleys and Bashirs of the world.

    I hope all I've said can be helpful to you. And I want you to know it was writtten with respect and love

    :heart:

  17. CherryLeigh says:

    Gnah, sorry!!

    Hey Sabine, I read your reply in the morning but didn’t have time to reply until now. But it was good to let your words simmer a bit before I comment on them.

    Turns out, you are right again with everything you say and at first, I didn’t like it. :lol: But since I could think about your words all day I really see the truth in them and I’m feeling better and better, really although I’m also thinking, God, I can’t believe I’m exactly doing some of the things I always tried not to. So at first that realization hurt me a little but now I think as long as I’m willing to work on it, it’s okay.

    Sabine: So I’d like to be very honest with you.No, I don’t think this is healthy at all. It’s obsessive.

    Yes, I know. I am obsessed with the man. :smile: Not to diminish the truth of what you said but just to my defense, I might reformulate what I wrote yesterday. What I meant when I said that I need him to be happy is this: Usually, I am a happy person, I get happiness from all kinds of things really and I love to laugh. But when I’m in this “What Michael did upsets me” phase I can’t be really happy because the unhappiness in that area infects my whole mood so that I can’t enjoy things as much as I usually do until I have this other thing fixed. I mean it’s not as strong when I’m with other people or doing stuff for university, you know, when I can concentrate on something else for a while but the feeling of sadness is always there in the back of my head and it comes back with force when I’m alone. It’s like a dull pain that’s there all the time but it gets stronger when “I am forced” to concentrate on it. So I’m not putting Michael in charge of my happiness, it’s not his fault that I’m unhappy, it’s just that when I’m not in tune with him as I usually am, this bothers me so much that my unhappiness about it is everywhere, I’m always thinking about it and until now never had a satisfactory solution for it…I really don’t want to blame him for my unhappiness which I know I create myself. Maybe it’s a bit clearer now.

    Sabine: Think of it like this:It is as if, say Michael was here, you gave him a box with a switch on it, and you say, You’re in charge of my happiness, okay? If you make me happy, I’ll be happy.If you do or say something that upsets me, I’ll be sad.So be good!

    Ouch. :smile: I’m not sure I do that. From my words it sure sounds as if, I know. But thank you for always coming up with such great concrete, tangible explanations and examples, that really helps me a lot.

    Sabine: You’ve made him the barometer for your own feelings and your own life. Since no person can read another persons mind, he would have no idea what to say or what to do every minute of the day to make you happy. What a burden!!!! In real life a person would want to run away!

    I know! And this is not what I would want him to feel, it really isn’t. You are right, we are responsible for our own lives and our own happiness, I know that and I try to live by it as best as I can. I guess maybe I confused loving someone with depending on him for happiness…

    Sabine: It’s like you’ve assigned a script to Michael and said, be this for me, be that for me and I’ll be happy.It’s not fair to do that to anyone, and it is also an impossible task for any one person to accomplish even someone as great as Michael!!!!!

    I know, you are right! And when I read that this morning I felt so bad because I don’t want to be someone like that, who does that. I mean I have thought about this as well before, I can’t make everything in my life depend on Michael…or rather depend on my feelings for him! Oh my God. My only excuse is that I am extreme in that way…I try to suppress that sometimes because I tell myself I have to stay real and sane and focused, I can’t drift off into a dream world, I have to see things as they are and I can NOT let this happen to myself, feeling so strongly for Michael and then be a mess when what he did upsets me. That’s why I wrote in my comment on GTBT that I don’t want this story to “interfere” with reality too much because I am extreme, I feel things very…passionately, when I like something I don’t just like it…and I’ve overstepped the border with Michel sometimes I think. It was great in that moment but you can’t stay there forever…

    Sabine: As I said, it doesn’t give him space to be human, to be himself, to make mistakes, to have a bad day.

    I know, it’s horrible. Thank you for saying that, for being so blunt, that’s what I needed, believe it or not. Not that it isn’t somehow obvious and therefore I could not have come up with this thought myself, in fact I have but it didn’t make me change my mind on the situation, I guess I needed to hear it from somebody else, too, somebody I feel I can trust, somebody who I feel knows what they are talking about because when I’m in this phase I don’t trust myself and my own thoughts sometimes…

    It’s bad enough making bad choices and upsetting the balance of your own life. I don’t know about you, but when I make a mistake I feel horrible.

    Oh, me, too, definitely!

    Sabine: But imagine being responsible for hundreds of thousands of people’s happiness as well.

    Which I think he thought he was, responsible for his fans’ happiness by meeting their expectations. Yes, that must have been very hard for him. God…why does this make so much sense to me right now and before it didn’t?

    Sabine: A whole bunch of people yelling at the base of Michael’s window“Don’t fuck up your life okay, because if you, you’re going to fuck up mine

    Oh my God, that is SO true and again, thank you for being so blunt and so concrete. I think this is just what I did, saying to Michael “Look what you did to ME by doing this and that, how could you”? Ugh!

    Now to what you said about control – self control and control of others…I’m definitely trying to control myself, my thoughts and feelings when I have the impression that I do or feel something I shouldn’t. Yes, it’s not allowing myself to have certain feelings and that’s not a good thing but our conversation has made me less strict with myself although I still have to work on that a great deal. But I think it might also be a kind of protective mechanism because I don’t WANT to feel sad or upset about things that really shouldn’t even make me feel this way (Michael). I want to feel good, I want to enjoy my life and what was granted to me. I should not be upset and mad at Michael, I know that but I still am sometimes and that makes me so angry…
    I really hope it won’t impair my ability to have close relationships with others.  Relationships are important to me although I’d rather have a few meaningful ones than 20 that I don’t really care about. It’s true, I have issues with really letting go or opening up to people…but that also depends on the other person, the situation and so on because with you I didn’t have a problem being open and honest about my feelings even though I know everybody can read what I write and think I am a total nutcase…

    Sabine: I think your love affair with Michael . .. . all the strong emotions he’s invoked in you, what you see in him, even the parts that you don’t see, ( the parts you’ve projected onto him) and are angry about in him are really all about you. You are the feeler having the feelings; you are the thinker thinking the thoughts.This is your story and you’re telling it to yourself.

    Yes. I didn’t see that before I guess. Michael was, is and always will be Michael, his life was his life, I can’t change a thing about it now, I can’t change that he’s dead and wherever he is now and depending on what you believe, his soul will be there for eternity so it’s just my view that I have to change, my feelings, my thoughts. He stays the same, I just have to decide whether I want be upset or happy. I know that, you see, I just forget it sometimes because I can’t think straight when I’m mad and sad and angry, just as you can’t think straight when you’re in love. :smile:

    Sabine: So I see this as a great wonderful huge opportunity for your own self growth.I hope you take it this way and begin to see that really it’s not about Michael at all.

    I do take it this way now…it took me more than a year to see that I have to take it that way if I want to move forward and not fall back into the same pattern again and again. It might happen to me again though but at least I will have this conversation to reread and to remember your advice.
    It’s not always nice to look at the girl in the mirror because you don’t always like what you see but it’s better than pretending you don’t see anything that needs to be changed.

    Sabine: To learn the lessons we need to and grow, I think.I also believe it’s Karma, and I know Michael said he thought that was bullshit, but I think he never got passed the surface understanding about Karma — it’s not about paying debts so much as it is about learning life lessons and spiritually growing.

    My mom says she believes in it if it means that we are born and reborn again and again until our soul or whatever has learned all the lessons it should have learned. The ones it didn’t learn in this life, it will be sent back to learn them in the next…is this what you believe?

    Sabine: So people like that, I have compassion for them frm AFAR — I don’t want anything to do with them because as you can see from Michael’s life: THEY ARE TOXIC. They will, with their self hatred and internal negativity, ruin your life if given half the opportunity, that’s because they hook up to you sort of like a gas tank and suck you dry until you have nothing left to give.I’m talking about the Arvisos, Chandlers, Murrays, Debbies, Mark Lesters, Thome, Thome, Schmuleys and Bashirs of the world.

    Thank you for explaining your feelings regarding Debbie again, I really like the basket image, it makes sense to me. I think some of those you mention above were definitely worse than others but I understand what you mean. The Chandlers and Arvizos were definitely toxic and plain evil when all Michael wanted was to help them and to be loved by them. But I think people like Debbie and Mark Lester are not half as bad these families. Imo, Mark and Debbie “just” liked the attention that Michael gave them, they felt special for being made a part of his life, for being the position to “help” him and of course once they’ve tasted that they didn’t want to lose it. I don’t know enough about Mark Lester to say anything about him but seeing him on TV all the time kind of shows that he uses his connection to Michael for his own good and also uses it as an opportunity to express his opinion about Michael, which puts him in the lovely company of Bashir or Shmuley. They loved Michael’s attention, his inviting them into his life, too but then they talk to him as if he was a child, trying to make him agree with their opinion, trying to manipulate his thoughts and his words so that he meets their expectations and they can feel good about themselves for having figured him out when nobody else did. Reading the Shmuley tapes with that thought in mind is actually quite amusing and if it wasn’t so sad I would laugh about the ridiculously high amount of toxic people Michael had to deal with, sometimes because he let them into his life, sometimes because they forced their way into it and ruined everything.

    Sabine: I hope all I’ve said can be helpful to you.And I want you to know it was writtten with respect and love

    I know, thank you, Sabine! It is very helpful to me, more than I would have expected myself when we started this conversation. Thank you so much!

  18. Sabine says:

    Hey Cherry, I'm glad you rec'd my response positively! Phewww! :biggrin:

    Cherry: I guess I needed to hear it from somebody else …

    You know it's just human nature that sometimes we hear something or even know it for ourselves but it doesn't click until a certain moment. that light bulb turns on and we're like NOW I understand! :lol:

    Cherry: I should not be upset and mad at Michael, I know that but I still am sometimes and that makes me so angry…

    You know, should is a word I hardly ever use in my internal dialogue. if i said that to my therapist she would ask me: Who did that to you? Who became mad at you when you were upset and told you that you should not be angry?

    I believe every thought we have, every feeling we have is for a reason. I think we just need try to understand what the reason is, what we're looking for; what need we're trying to meet. Otherwise we might stop the behavior but replace is with another behavior that's just as negative, 'cause the need is still there trying to be fulfilled.

    Cherry: I can’t change that he’s dead and wherever he is now and depending on what you believe, his soul will be there for eternity so it’s just my view that I have to change, my feelings, my thoughts. He stays the same, I just have to decide whether I want be upset or happy.

    Hmm, well not exactly. If you decide, I'm not going to be upset about this, but still feel upset, then to me there's a REASON. So rather than beating yourself over the feeling, why not ask yourself WHY? If a person allows the truth to just surface, then they will be getting to know themselves and peeling away the layers of self-reflection.

    Cherry: I just forget it sometimes because I can’t think straight when I’m mad and sad and angry, just as you can’t think straight when you’re in love.

    There's this wonderful book called Blink -- it talks about how the subconscious mind is always working and processing information and realizes things that we know even before we can consciously formulate the thoughts. So basically we know things even before we KNOW we know them.

    Like you know how you meet someone and the hair on the back of your neck goes up and you think, Something is NOT right with that person. That's your subconscious mind speaking to you. That's where our emotions come in!!!!! If someone asks, you'll say, I don't know, I just have this feeling!

    Emotions communicate information faster than our brains can think. There's another book, The Gift of Fear, which also talks about this. Our gut instincts, our feelings can tell us a lot about ourselves and who we are, but let me tell you, the language of emotions is TRICKY.

    :tongue:

    It doesn't work the same way verbal language does or even our thoughts does~!!!! And to make matters worst, our emotions are highly subject to influence. Situations and people can trigger us so that we feel the emotions from previous situations or incidents with other people that we never resolved and have been carrying around with us in our hearts. So that's why always being honest w/ yourself is very important, that and being open. And I think allowing all emotions to be acceptable, not just the good ones that make us happy. We can feel the feelings, we don't have to act on them.

    Cherry: It’s not always nice to look at the girl in the mirror because you don’t always like what you see but it’s better than pretending you don’t see anything that needs to be changed.

    Aint that the truth! Cause girl, there's a whole bunch of people walking around this earth telling themselves that they are one way when they are NOT, let me tell you!
    RE: Karma

    Cherry: My mom says she believes in it if it means that we are born and reborn again and again until our soul or whatever has learned all the lessons it should have learned. The ones it didn’t learn in this life, it will be sent back to learn them in the next…is this what you believe?

    Mhmm! Yep, and you'll see it in your life or others. People who make the same mistakes over and over, are presented with the same situations over and over until they get it. I always tell my daughter, get it right now or you'll be back to do it again.

    Cherry: I think some of those you mention above were definitely worse than others but I understand what you mean. The Chandlers and Arvizos were definitely toxic and plain evil when all Michael wanted was to help them and to be loved by them. But I think people like Debbie and Mark Lester are not half as bad these families.

    Let me tell you, IMO, six degrees of separation. That's how I feel. The Debbies and the Mark Lesters just haven't let themselves go as far as the Chandler and the Arvisos did, but the motivation and the reasoning was the same. I agree w/ you about Bashir and Schmuley also, they both wanted to use Michael to elevate their own careers/status, like Oprah used him and then turned his back on him when she could have helped him clear his name from those molestation charges.

    They all wanted to use Michael for something and did not care how it affected him, as long as they were satisfied.

    They were all prepared to do it continuously and without remorse.

    They all will deny it if confronted and claim that they loved and cared for him or that their motivation was selfless and innocent. In other words Lie.

    To me when you are prepared to continuously use another person for your own benefit and when you will lie about it or justify it, so that you can keep on doing it, that is EVIL. I don't care how or why.

    Here's something interesting that I thought of. I noticed, we have lots of scary movies based on the concept of monsters who suck the life out of us or consume us -- Vampires, zombies, aliens taking over our body, demons who possess us, even governments who use mind control. We as humans, are terrified of being taken over, of having our soul stolen or snatched up or devoured.

    It seems to me that the loss of autonomy and "self" is a very BIG fear human beings have.

    It's as if in telling these horror stories to ourselves, we keep warning ourselves of how evil this is, and also keeping the terror of it alive -- so that we'll always stay alert and never sleep on the parasites that are around us.

    I think by telling ourselves this story we are trying to remind ourselves of who to watch out for and what not to become. :wink:

    You are so welcome for anything you're getting out of this -- I'm learning a lot too, of course :heart:

  19. CherryLeigh says:

    I’m having a few minutes to spare because university ended earlier than usually today so I wanted to take a look at what we last talked about here...

    You know it’s just human nature that sometimes we hear something or even know it for ourselves but it doesn’t click until a certain moment.that light bulb turns on and we’re like NOW I understand!

    It is? Phew I’m glad! I told you, I started questiong the thoughts I sometimes have/had about Michael long ago and was so frustrated because it felt as if my heart and my mind were working against each other and against me, too. :smile:

    You know, should is a word Ihardly ever use in my internal dialogue.if i said that to my therapist she would ask me:Who did that to you?Who became mad at you when you were upset and told you that you should not be angry?

    I honestly don’t know. I know that my mother never told me it’s bad to be angry or mad or sad. As long as I can remember I’ve always tried to not let on anger or sadness, I could speak to my mom about it but I always felt that eventually I have to deal with it myself and I just don’t want to bother other people or have all their attention focused on me because I feel bad and they want to make me feel better…

    Hmm, well not exactly. If you decide, I’m not going to be upset about this, but still feel upset, then to me there’s a REASON.So rather than beating yourself over the feeling, why not ask yourself WHY?If a person allows the truth to just surface, then they will be getting to know themselves and peeling away the layers of self-reflection.

    You are right. I did ask myself why I feel so strongly about this, so… appalled by it when others can so easily overlook Michael’s problem with drugs. I think to a certain extend it’s also fear on my part, fear of the unknown because I’ve never tried drugs, any kind of drug and I don’t drink often or much. It’s also because of my experience with my father I guess…and maybe I will find out more in the future.

    The Gift of Fear, which also talks about this.

    Wow, that’s an interesting title; I never saw fear as a gift. In some cases fear protects you but my general attitude towards it right now is that it’s not a good thing to have because everybody around me seems so fearless, so grown-up, so sure of who they are and what they’re going to do…in university you are always told that you have to present yourself self-confident and competent, you have to tackle things even though you don’t want to or feel like you can’t…actually you can’t feel that you can’t…At least that is what it seems like to me. They don’t say “don’t be afraid, it’s going to be ok” but rather “you can’t be afraid, you’re going to be a teacher one day and you have to be able to do this and this and that and you can’t be like this or like that because it won’t work if you are.” I’m a timid person definitely so I always think about fear and try to find ways to reduce it, that is why to me it never seemed like a gift but rather like a burden.

    I think allowing all emotions to be acceptable, not just the good ones that make us happy.We can feel the feelings, we don’t have to act on them.

    That’s right. I don’t know how I would have acted, had I been a part of Michael’s life, a friend. My feeling about his drug abuse would have probably been the same but I would have chosen my words very carefully or maybe I wouldn’t have said anything at all…I wouldn’t have wanted to for him to turn away from me because I said something he doesn’t like.

    Aint that the truth! Cause girl, there’s a whole bunch of people walking around this earth telling themselves that they are one way when they are NOT, let me tell you!

    I know, oh my God! It’s actually funny how I always tell myself “I have to get better at this, I have to be more like that” you know, critical of myself when there are so many people who think they are soooooo great, so smart, so popular and so right about everything when they are clearly not but they get away with it because they believe in themselves. So it’s actually not about who you are but who you believe you are.

    Mhmm! Yep, and you’ll see it in your life or others.People who make the same mistakes over and over, are presented with the same situations over and over until they get it.I always tell my daughter, get it right now or you’ll be back to do it again.

    Wow, this thought really helped me over the weekend and the past few days when the shit hit the fan again concerning my father and the mess he calls his life…I’m not going into detail here but I’m almost certain now that he will never learn because he indeed is presented with the same situation over and over again. You’d think now, there’s no way for him to go but up..but no, with him it always has to get worse before it gets “better”.

    Let me tell you, IMO, six degrees of separation. That’s how I feel.

    Can you elaborate on that? I’m not sure I know what you mean.

    Concerning all the bloodsuckers in Michael’s life, the horror movie analogy is very interesting…I think Michael had the feeling of losing his autonomy and his self for as long as he could remember. This is I guess also one of the reasons why he sometimes kicked the people who told him what he did was wrong or dangerous in their eyes out of his life, he didn’t want to have other people tell him what is good for him and what is not. Shmuley and Bashir did that, too, but with another intention, they didn’t do it out of love and concern for him. I can’t believe how Bashir is trying to put the blame on Michael for the trip to the zoo in Berlin gone wrong. The way he kind of disciplines him about that, ugh! And poor Michael, because he is so used to that situation, just sits there like a little boy and silently takes it all.
    Shmuley and Bashir were definitely those kind of monsters who want to control and possess your brain.

    You are so welcome for anything you’re getting out of this — I’m learning a lot too, of course

    Really? What did you learn from this? I mean you were the one who knew all these things I didn’t see. :wink:

  20. CherryLeigh says:

    Hi Sabine, I see you're online, just wanted to let you know I left another comment here but it
    got pushed down by other entries...just so you know I haven't abandoned this conversation, I'm just real busy
    at the moment. :ninja:

  21. Sabine says:

    Hey Cherry, I see your comment -- I just gotta sit down and get my head right before I reply! I would never wanna reply on the run!!!! :smile:

    BRB!

  22. Sabine says:

    Hey Cherry!

    Okay I'm able to sit down and answer you now. Sorry it took me a bit.

    Sabine: You know it’s just human nature that sometimes we hear something or even know it for ourselves but it doesn’t click until a certain moment.that light bulb turns on and we’re like NOW I understand!

    Cherry: It is? Phew I’m glad! I told you, I started questioning the thoughts I sometimes have/had about Michael long ago and was so frustrated because it felt as if my heart and my mind were working against each other and against me, too. :smile:

    I personally think the heart and mind speak two different languages and sometimes we need an interpeter. :wink:

    Sabine: You know, should is a word Ihardly ever use in my internal dialogue.if i said that to my therapist she would ask me:Who did that to you?Who became mad at you when you were upset and told you that you should not be angry?

    Cherry: I honestly don’t know. I know that my mother never told me it’s bad to be angry or mad or sad.

    It might have been a message that was sent through behavior. You know, like a father might tell his kids, be healthy, eat well, stay strong, but he smokes like a chimney and drinks every day after work. So what's the real message the children get?

    Cherry: As long as I can remember I’ve always tried to not let on anger or sadness, I could speak to my mom about it but I always felt that eventually I have to deal with it myself

    Well, that might be something right there, the idea that you'd have no support and eventualy you'd have to deal with it on your own, which I think would make anyone avoid feeling those feelings. But only you will know.

    Cherry: and I just don’t want to bother other people or have all their attention focused on me because I feel bad and they want to make me feel better…

    And that's another clue to me, too, that you felt not only that you'd have to deal with alone but that also if you asked for support you were being a bother. To me the message underlying this type of thinking is "I'm not worthy".

    Cherry: I did ask myself why I feel so strongly about this, so… appalled by it when others can so easily overlook Michael’s problem with drugs. I think to a certain extend it’s also fear on my part, fear of the unknown because I’ve never tried drugs, any kind of drug and I don’t drink often or much. It’s also because of my experience with my father I guess…and maybe I will find out more in the future.

    I thnk you're right, fear that you might end up like that would make a person, if they're unaware that they're talking out of fear, really intolerant and judgemental. Basically everything you'd be saying to Michael is what you are also subconsciously telling yourself -- that tough love kind of parenting, which is sometimes abusive.

    Cherry: Wow, that’s an interesting title; I never saw fear as a gift. In some cases fear protects you but my general attitude towards it right now is that it’s not a good thing to have because everybody around me seems so fearless, so grown-up, so sure of who they are and what they’re going to do

    I think the key word there is "seems". Human beings in general are full of fear!

    Cherry: They don’t say “don’t be afraid, it’s going to be ok” but rather “you can’t be afraid, you’re going to be a teacher one day and you have to be able to do this and this and that and you can’t be like this or like that because it won’t work if you are.”

    So basically more denying feelings? That's never a good thing IMO.

    If you are afraid you can deny it all you want, you still are.

    Cherry: I’m a timid person definitely so I always think about fear and try to find ways to reduce it, that is why to me it never seemed like a gift but rather like a burden.

    Fear has to be distinguished from insecurity or low self esteem. Even the smartest most capable person can be afraid and sometimes its good to be afraid. Like being afraid of fire. There's a reason we are and it's a good reason.

    Cherry: My feeling about his drug abuse would have probably been the same but I would have chosen my words very carefully or maybe I wouldn’t have said anything at all…I wouldn’t have wanted to for him to turn away from me because I said something he doesn’t like.

    I don't think in a healthy relationship one is supposed to walk on egg shells and not tell the other person how they feel for fear that they'll run away -- that's codependent. But of course there's a way, a time and a place to say everything.

    Cherry: I know, oh my God! It’s actually funny how I always tell myself “I have to get better at this, I have to be more like that” you know, critical of myself when there are so many people who think they are soooooo great, so smart, so popular and so right about everything when they are clearly not but they get away with it because they believe in themselves.

    Girl, what are you talking about? Do you think they REALLY believe in themselves? They're just acting!

    Cherry: So it’s actually not about who you are but who you believe you are.

    :pinch: But who you believe you are is who you are. So it's always about who you believe you are, and those people acting, at night, when they lay their heads on the pillow, they know who they REALLY believe they are, no matter how they act.

    Sabine: Mhmm! Yep, and you’ll see it in your life or others.People who make the same mistakes over and over, are presented with the same situations over and over until they get it.I always tell my daughter, get it right now or you’ll be back to do it again.

    Cherry: Wow, this thought really helped me over the weekend and the past few days when the shit hit the fan again concerning my father and the mess he calls his life…I’m not going into detail here but I’m almost certain now that he will never learn because he indeed is presented with the same situation over and over again. You’d think now, there’s no way for him to go but up..but no, with him it always has to get worse before it gets “better”.

    The hope that our parents will one day be different is a really hard one to kick. It really runs deep, and just when you think you have gotten over it, the parent does something again and you're sooooooo mad, because deep inside you've still been hoping.

    The reason is because without the hope comes the despair and the loss and most people would do anything not to feel that.

    Sabine: Let me tell you, IMO, six degrees of separation. That’s how I feel.

    Cherry: Can you elaborate on that? I’m not sure I know what you mean.

    You were saying that Mark Lester and Debbie weren't as bad as the ARvisos or the Chandlers and I'm saying six degrees of separation, it's the same thing, just two points on the same ruler. The only difference is Lester and Debbie haven't gotten to that point yet, but they're on the same road and that's exactly where they are heading if they continue their behavior.

    Cherry: Concerning all the bloodsuckers in Michael’s life, the horror movie analogy is very interesting…I think Michael had the feeling of losing his autonomy and his self for as long as he could remember. This is I guess also one of the reasons why he sometimes kicked the people who told him what he did was wrong or dangerous in their eyes out of his life, he didn’t want to have other people tell him what is good for him and what is not.

    You know I know this is hard for people understand or accept, but I myself will cut a person off completely if I feel they are threatening my autonomy or trying to disrespect me in any way. I mean I have cut family off and not spoken to them for years.

    I just I cannot tolerate any one trying to manipulate or control me. I don't care if what they're telling me is good for me, they have to respect me and say it the right way, or they will definitely get cut off. I've always been that way, and I doubt it will change. Of course I might try to reason with the person but if I feel there's some kind of disrespect or a feeling that the person wants to have power over me or make me into something for their own purpose, oh, hell know. I'm outta there.

    Cherry: Shmuley and Bashir did that, too, but with another intention, they didn’t do it out of love and concern for him. I can’t believe how Bashir is trying to put the blame on Michael for the trip to the zoo in Berlin gone wrong. The way he kind of disciplines him about that, ugh! And poor Michael, because he is so used to that situation, just sits there like a little boy and silently takes it all.
    Shmuley and Bashir were definitely those kind of monsters who want to control and possess your brain.

    Yeah, that type of condescending, I know what's best for you attitude, I would have BEEN cut them off. But I don't think Michael sat there like a little boy. To me he is visibly angry. But he doesn't know how to express it -- he's so used to being polite. I, myself, would have turn the microphones off and told Bashir, either you're going to ask me questions like I'm a man and you respect me or you can get the fuck out.

    :lol:

    I'm so serious!

    Sabine: You are so welcome for anything you’re getting out of this — I’m learning a lot too, of course

    Cherry: Really? What did you learn from this? I mean you were the one who knew all these things I didn’t see. :wink:

    Well, first of all I find human beings and how they think fascinating, so I love to learn about how people are seeing things and their point of view. And also, I mean, there will come times in my life too when I'm blocked or unable to see something, and I can remember this conversation and think to myself, oh, wow, this is just what Cherry was dealing with -- so you know it's good reference material.

    :heart:

  23. lisa says:

    I want to read the story`s update!!! :angry:

  24. Sabine says:

    Ach, nothing to see here!!!! Girl, you know how this story ends!!!!! :sad:

    Why do you want to see it updated????? :wassat:

    Seriously, if something came up I would, but nothing has come up yet. I just keep seeing Michael handing Debbie that check :sad:

    It would probably be really therapeutic for me to write it though, get all my frustrations out!!!

  25. lisa says:

    Cause it` s really intresting story! and it really well-written :cheerful:

  26. Sabine says:

    Awww shucks thanks!!!! :heart:

  27. MJJWendy says:

    Where is the continuation to Debbie Mike and Lisa???? To be continued to when and where?

  28. Sabine says:

    To be continued sometime in the near future if I decide to write it, which I just told you I don't know if I will ever write another chapter in this story . . . I'm pretty busy with Bad Boy Mike :smile:

  29. MJsGirl says:

    ...still trying. :cwy:

  30. SuperSabine says:

    You didn't have access with this account. I just fixed it for you :wink:

  31. Autumn says:

    God Sabine.....

    You nailed it on the head with this one. My question was always the same, WHY?

    I know alot of people are just put off by Debbie's look, but for me it was always the behavior. I mean your friend comes to you, in distress for help just to talk about his feelings because of problems he's having, and all you can do is to make it inevitable that his marriage will end in divorce, by offering to have kids for him.

    ...I'm not so sure if Debbie hadn't offered to have kids, that Michael and Lisa would still be together, but JUST maybe if Debbie hadn't offered to have kids for him there may have been a chance for Michael and Lisa to work things out.

    But I have to be really honest and blunt for that matter on some of Michael's mistakes as well. I mean I love Michael to death not just because of the singer or performer he was, that is WHAT he was, but for WHO he was. Just a regular really nice guy with a great heart and qualities that are hard to come by these days......it would really hurt and disappoint for me to think that he had to conceive his kids with Debbie the natural way while married to Lisa. However, let me make it clear whether it was done through artificial insemination or not, I still feel Michael should not have gone ahead on Debbie's offer, she's wrong for making the offer and Michael for taking her up on it. Debbie miscarried before having Prince Michael, meaning that Michael and Debbie had gotten the process of her having kids for Michael, started long before Michael and Lisa were even divorced, by my calender a long time.

    I guess Michael's desperation for having kids was so severe, that it clouded his judgement or nothing else seemed more important to him at that moment, but just having kids, whether it was with Debbie, Lisa or whoever. It has also for some reason always seemed to me that Michael wasn't so much interested in being a husband as much as he was interested in being a father, I always fielt it wasn't really Lisa he ever cared about but juist having kids from his wife, and of course Lisa just seems to have said yes to marrying Michael I think because she was just caught up in the moment. The ways Lisa has been married and divorced so many times, and in and out of relationships doesn't really add to her being a very credible marriage partner.....one would wonder what she was looking for. I fault Lisa definitely for not keeping her promise to him, but there are times when I think, well.......

    None of us really know what happened between them but Michael, Lisa and Debbie, according to Lisa it wasn't easy being married to Michael, but I do think she had her own agenda, and therefore, all 3 people in this story are at fault in their own ways, but I would definitely say the women were more wrong, Michael only wanted kids, nothing wrong in that but just the way he went about it and with whom he had them.

    I always found Debbie to be such a lying tart, who always seemed to be covering up her real motives. Like all the interviews I've seen of her and crying and begging for privacy "I have a right to my own privacy" its like......oh puulease, you can't marry someone like Michael Jackson and not know you are going to get bombarded by the media. Not to say she doesn't have a right to her privacy but Debbie always acted as if "what happened....what happened!" like she was totally surprised by all the attention and why it was going on. I think she herself was so focused on Michael and taking him away from Lisa that she lost sight of everything else. The biggest think I have to laugh at sarcastically was when in that interview where Debbie and Michael are talking to that reporter outside Neverland walking with Prince and Debbie is pregnant with Paris and and debbie says something to the effect off if she is getting in the way of Lisa and Michael's relationship she will gladly step out of the way.....

    to that I have to say....

    Woman who are you fooling.....duh you have already gotten in the way forever by having kids for him, end of story. So what is up with this "oh I'm not a home wrecker" attitude. Oh yes she is, and trying to show how selfless she is, when if fact deep down I think she was so happy she succeeded in taking Michael away from Lisa, permanently, not that Michael and Lisa didn't have problems to begin with, but having kids for Michael was what drove the final nail into the coffin for Michael and Lisa, at least that's my opinion.

    or how about that interview Debbie did with Rebecca White and she didn't want to talk about Michael, like come on, she didn't come there to talk to you because you are Debbie Rowe alone. Its because she was once married to Michael Jackson, so why have the reporter come over and be willing to talk to her?? Doesn't quite add up.

    So some of these contradicting behaviors of Debbie has been my reasons for disliking her.

    Well more laterz...

    Autumn

  32. SimplySabine says:

    I can't say disagree with anything you're saying. I mean if you read my comments here on this thread, you'll see how I feel.

    I don't think any true friend would offer to do what Debbie did. IMO, Michael is wrong for agreeing, but he would never have agreed if Debbie didn't offer.

    I do think Michael wanted to be a Dad more than he wanted to be a husband. My theory is Michael got into so much trouble hanging with other people's kids he decided it was high time he had his own. Being religious, he wasn't going to just knock some woman up, because that would have been SOOOOOOOO easy for him -- he wanted the family, and Lisa was convenient.

    Lisa thought she was going to change him, just like Debbie thought she was going to posess him. Neither of them factored in that Michael was JOSEPH's child, and no one was going to really control him!!!

    He knew what he wanted, he used both women to try and get it. I mean, that's what people do right or wrong.

    Debbie to me is so full of it. I agree w/ what you said, why marry Michael and then pretend that you just want privacy. No, you don't.

    Debbie to me is the uber fan that got lucky. she wanted to stuff Michael and put him on a shelf, and when it became clear that Michael wasn't going to allow himself to be a walking trophy husband, when it was clear that all he wanted was the kids, then Debbie was like, damn, I messed up. Okay, give me money instead.

    Boy, what a friend huh?

    And i think how she abandoned those children is deplorable!

    MIchael was great father but children need a Mom too, and for that I fault Michael because he was selfish with them.

    Anyway, i could go on and on. Debbie gets no sympathy from me, and neither does Lisa.

    I really don't think their relationship would have worked. I mean, like you said, she wasn't really good marriage material. Too many Daddy issues, I think. And I think she was trying to work out those Daddy issues with Mike. she was going to save him, like she couldn't save her own father.

    To be fair, I think she had feelings for him. How could you NOT love Michael. I think she got bitter when he wouldn't do what she said, and tried to manipulate him by withholding kids. Wellp, the back fired!!!!

    Then she had regrets because you know, some things WERE good between them. It's not an uncommon story unfortunately. Lots of women make that mistake.

    You know who I feel sorry for? Lisa's husband. When she was married to Nicholas Cage, he said he coudl never measure up because he didn't wear one glove!

    WTF :w00t:

  33. Silvie161263 says:

    Even if you know a couple personally, you don't know exactly what's really going on in their relationship, especially concering sex. So all the more we'll never know, whether Michael's and Lisa's sexual relationship was as beautiful as you describe it. But I hope it was! That's why I especially loved the paragraph in which you write: "It was heaven to feel close to someone. It was a God send to be able (...)."
    When I'm thinking about Michael I always hope that he had moments like that with someone...

  34. SweeneyTodd says:

    One can never know what's going on in another person's heart . . . .and the bedroom :lol:

    But I give it a pretty good shot and I've been told I have a great imagination :wink:

    Thought I don't think Lisa's NEW husband would appreciate my talents!!!!!
    Can you imagine Lisa reading this and thinking to herself, wow, how did she know!!!!

  35. Silvie161263 says:

    Hello, SweeneyTodd!

    But I give it a pretty good shot and I've been told I have a great imagination

    Yes you have, that's why we all love reading your stories! :reading: :yes:

    Now I'm delighted that there's a book "Cowboy Mike". That's great and I always wished to read it on my sofa or in bed :cheerful: and not sitting in front of that cold computer... :unsure:

    Question: Did Lisa ever talk to someone about her sexual relationship with Michael??

    In my above comment I just wanted to express my wish that he really was that happy at times with Lisa or someone else. That would make me happy (though I rather should have been the ONE :cwy: )

    Have a great afternoon! Silvie

  36. candicelewis says:

    I could kick my self for not logging on this site before, i just started to read some of the stories and i am hooked already. I started with baby be mine an all i could say is WOW! you can fell all the raw passion and pain between the two.

  37. nahlaboudax says:

    Wow, this story was so good. Sabine, are you sure you weren't invisible with note pad in Mike's and Lisa's company?. LOL :reading: Serioulsy, I dont think I left my seat for a snack , a drink . Lisa was so wrong in many ways but in a way I understand her part of not being ready. Perhaps, Michael's world was too overhwelming at that time when he wanted to make babies. :hmm: I dont know and then on the other hand she was not upfront with him. How do let someone believe that you will have a baby with them and then take back what you promised. I understand his hurt, frustration and anguish over that. I understand both points to a certain point. Excellent story! :thankyou:

  38. Sabine says:

    nahlaboudax: How do let someone believe that you will have a baby with them and then take back what you promised.

    You're asking the wrong person! First of all, I love babies, and if I loved a man, I don't think I could deny him one, but to be fair, I don't think Michael and his life was the easiest thing to deal with. Still, I think Lisa was trying to work out her personal demons with Michael and like you said, she wasn't honest with him ... :pinch:

    It's a sad state of affairs (and no, I wasn't there, :smile: ) but thanks for the feedback, I truly appreciate it.

  39. nahlaboudax says:

    Yeah, I was sort of talking out loud, lol!!! the story was really believeable. sigh* Definately a sad state of affiars.

    I've been burning midnight oil with Cowboy Mike and loss entrance, what happened? :wacko:

  40. Sabine says:

    I was wondering what happened to you. I saw you logging into the chapters back to back and figured your were rushing to Bad Boy Mike, as the Bad Michael fan's often do. :lol:

    The system is automated. I've noticed it might knock you off if you don't log in for a while or if I've done an update. Wordpress updates it's platform regularly, so there you go :smile:

  41. nahlaboudax says:

    I enjoy reading so if it's interesting I will go through it fast :yes: . I work nights so I can read at all sorts of times. I will wait to comment. At the very end of Cowboy Mike and Bad Boy. Also, it hard on my husband laptop to toggle back and forth to repsond to coments. I'm also in the process of moving etc...when I can I will try to read as much as I can. I will probbaly be telling you agian abut being locked out. lol :wacko:

    Thank you Sabine

  42. Sabine says:

    Moving sucks big time! Hope its over for you soon! :caress:

  43. afrochick says:

    heyy sabine!
    OMG i've missed you soo much. I havent been on for the past months. I'm on my gap year and have been volunteering around the globe and havent really had much time to even use the computer. Im back home now and was wondering if i'd be able to get my access back again :$ i miss your stories, and would like to re-read them. THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING!!!! have an amazing day!

  44. susanchaney says:

    Sabine one thing I wanted to get your opinion on Debbie always said she gave p&p to Michael as a gift. Well I always thought when you give somebody something you don't take money from them. She was probably the highest paid surrogate in history. She misscarried before she had Prince and He was still married to Lisa at this point. Maybe I am being unfair to her but I just believe you wanted Michael and wanted him away from Lisa and wasn't as squeaky clean as she portrayed!

  45. Jaz says:

    Hi Sabine.
    I am glad you got my comment.
    These two stories were unreal. I feel you really capture the essence of their relationship. ( Lisa and Michaels) I would like to believe they were truly and deeply in love. Did you see that letter that was up for auction? He was crazy for her. But I don't think either was mature enough for a relationship in the spotlight. It would have been nice to see him in a normal relationship with kids. Maybe, just maybe, it would have changed his ending.
    Looking forward to reading more stories.

  46. Sabine says:

    Thanks for the message again. I think Lisa and Michael just needed someone at that particular time in their life. Lisa seems to be the serial marrying type, which I can never get! How do you meet four people that you want to spend the rest of your life with and dedicate you mind, body and soul too :lol: . . . and then change your mind! :wassat:

    I did see the letter. It's kinda sad, don't you think, that something so personal could be for sale. :sad:

    Well, I don't know if you started reading CBM or never dead, but let me know what you think!!! :reading:

  47. Jaz says:

    Hi again Sabine!
    I could not agree with you more about the letter, How did something so personal get in the hands of someone to be auctioned off. I was so relieved to hear it was taken off the list of things to be sold to the highest bidder!

    I have not read Cowboy Mike yet was hoping to soon. Between my husband and my kids there seems to be little time for me, especially now that it is the summer break! I get here when I can and savor the break from my reality. :w00t: Which I really enjoy!

  48. Sabine says:

    I'm glad you enjoy it here, that's the point! You haven't read cowboy mike :wassat:

    You're in for a treat! :yes:

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