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15 Oct 2009

Why Debbie? (Because we’ve all racked our brains trying to make sense of it!)

Debbie Rowe, Fan Fiction, Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson Debbie Rowe Lisa Marie Presley 98 Comments


This story picks up where Baby Be Mine left off, so you might want to read that first if you have not already.

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98 Responses to “Why Debbie? (Because we’ve all racked our brains trying to make sense of it!)”

  1. NightGarden says:

    wow, wow, wow!! very sensual, intense, visual: enjoyed every single word of it! waiting for the next part!
    :-)

  2. CobraCrackCentral says:

    Thank you so much Nightgarden!!!! Stay tuned for the next installment!

  3. NightGarden says:

    always tuned dear: yay!!!:-)

  4. magpie says:

    You are one deceitful UCDH! Never thought I would find the Debbie story hot but my God this was the hottest yet! Are you kidding me? All this and my husband isn't home! I don't know how you're going to top this one....

    Work of genius...Need.to.change.pantays. (Kelz gets paid...)

  5. CobraCrackCentral says:

    LOL!!! So you didn't need the barf bag after all huh? Wait until your husband gets home!!!! He's gonna get it!

  6. Planet Jackson says:

    Mmmm, "it's all for you" has to be one of the hottest lines ever! I nearly lost my mind!

  7. Sabine says:

    Hey PJ again. I swear, I had to read this story over 'cause I forgot what I wrote! I read what you said, It's all for you -- and I was like, damn, when did I write that?>

    LOL!!!

    Well, upon reading it again, I have to agree, that was HOT! (if I do say so myself).

    I need to write the next chapter of this too!!!!

  8. MuayThaiGirl28 says:

    I love the story. When will you update this? Gosh I'm getting more and more addicted to this site.

  9. Lisa says:

    Wow I love this story. Its very sensual. I never thought I would like a story that involved both Debbie and Lisa Marie

  10. Sabine says:

    Hey Lisa! I read this again before I put it up, funny how I forget what I wrote! LOL!!! Glad you liked it, I tried, oh I tried to give Debbie a love scene it just was not happening for her. I don't think she had one in real life either! I don't know if I'll do another -- nothing has come forward since. I've got my hands full with the Cowboy and the Prince :)

  11. PinkFrosting says:

    *puts down garbage pail*

    I just read this one and was scared to finish. If you gave Debbie a sex scene i would've flatlined..lol

    loved it!

  12. Sabine says:

    Poor Debbie! :blush:

    Just the thought for me :cwy:

    I couldn't write it :wassat:

  13. Day-Day.Lol says:

    Do you plan on continuing this stoery? I just keep coming back to check and see if this one has been updated :P

  14. Sabine says:

    Hey Day Day! Maybe some day, but right now I have my hands full w/ cowboy Mike and the prince!

  15. parkerlee53 says:

    The hottest LMP/MJ story that I have ever read, The scene on the table was mind blowing. That Lisa was a very lucky woman. I look forward to reading more, more, more.....

  16. Sabine says:

    I look forward to it myself. Have you said you HAVEN'T read Cowboy Mike!

    :w00t: Girlllll, you're in for a treat!!!!

  17. Shamona says:

    these stories, are fantastic, leading into another dimension! wow... i'm new addict!!! :blush:

  18. Sabine says:

    Hey Shamona! Thank you !!!!! We always have room for another addict -- as you can see, the site has accommodations!!! So become a follower! That way when I update you'll know!

  19. katerina says:

    to be continued?? oh girl I am begging you! Please please oh please don't do it!!! this is medieval torture. I can't stop thinking that there's a possibilty she might have had it THAT good. I'm sorry but I have to say it. She was just not worth any of all that stuff. that's how I feel. Makes me wanna scream. Really, really scream my lungs out!!! Yes I know I have the option not to read it but it's too late now. I should have stopped after reading the first lines but hell who am I kidding?? I just can't, can't, can't resist to your incredible sex scenes.

  20. Sabine says:

    I should have stopped after reading the first lines but hell who am I kidding?? I just can’t, can’t, can’t resist to your incredible sex scenes.

    :lol: Katerina! High compliment indeed!

    I can’t stop thinking that there’s a possibilty she might have had it THAT good.

    You know, I really think she had it BETTER!!!! :tongue:

  21. deedeeluvmike says:

    :wub: this story NEEDS to be continued :blush:

  22. katerina says:

    now that's what I call injustice!!! :angry: and of course ungratefullnes. you never walk out on a man who's freaki' awesome in bed.(since you really think that she might had it better) who gives a damn about the other problems?! just as long as you get it GOOD!!! :devil:

  23. Sabine says:

    uhhh, why -- you want to read about Debbie getting some?

    :sick:

  24. dani_california85 says:

    HEY SABINE, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE POST A NEW CHAPTER ON THIS STORY!!! :wub:
    I WILL LOVE YOU FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER FOR ETERNITY AND THE REST OF MY LIFE IF YOU DO THAT! :biggrin: :heart:
    AND PLEASE COULD YOU MAKE A STORY OUT OF MIKEY AND DEBBIE :tongue: LOL!
    I THINK SHE DESERVE THAT TOO :biggrin:

  25. Sabine says:

    *looking through the CCC Dealing w/ Addicts Manual*

    Ahhh, begging for a continuation of a story. It's right here, wow. hmmm. Well, I'll tell you what if anything comes to mind, I will definitely write another chapter, but so far I have my hands tied with Cowboy/Prince Mike!

    :wub: But I love your addiction!!!

    AND PLEASE COULD YOU MAKE A STORY OUT OF MIKEY AND DEBBIE :tongue: LOL!

    :pouty: you want a horror story?
    I've never written one of those before . . .

  26. dani_california85 says:

    GEE, THANKS! :biggrin:

    THIS IS THE KIND OF ADDICTION I WILL NEVER GO TO REHAB FOR!!! LOL :biggrin:

    LOL SABINE, YOU'RE MEAN!!! :angel: :biggrin:

  27. Sabine says:

    :wub:

    Shamone now, you're trying to get me to write a love scene for Debbie?

    :w00t:

  28. dani_california85 says:

    UHMMMM... LET ME THINK.... :pinch:

    OK I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT :wub: MAYBE I'LL LEAVE IT UP TO YOU :lol: :wub:

  29. Destiny says:

    AHHHHHHHHHHHHH :w00t: I LOVE IT I CANT WAIT FOR THE NEXT PART AND OMG I DONT KNOW WHY BUT I DONT LIKE DEBBIE AT ALL :angry: AND LISA WELL SHES OK :getlost: BUT MICHAEL IS SOOOOOOOOOO SEXY AND HOT I LOVE IT!!!! :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

  30. Sabine says:

    Hi Destiny!!!! I love new addicts sooooooo, how many stories have you read so far?????

    :whistle:

  31. DeborahGreene says:

    as much as we may hate it i think he and debbie did do it in 95 course i wouldnt know how exciting it was since she didnt have lisa's smoldering eyes for him to look at. , lol. god i love these stories, again they seem so real, i mean i could really see these two thinking and doing exactly what is discribed . thanks for givking me a place to .xscape to. lol :w00t:

  32. Sabine says:

    I'm in complete denial and determined to stay that way. No one but Debbie and Michael know :sick: for sure if they :sick: did it -- ughhhh, pardon my while I go throw up.

    It's not just her physically -- it's her whole spirit that's distasteful to me -- IMO, Debbie is a user.

    But I'm glad you're liking the stories.

  33. EnolaLee says:

    I have always been a firm believer that Michael did not have kids the old-fashioned way with Debbie. I have no way of knowing the truth, so of course it is all based on gut feelings...and well, maybe I want to protect myself too. The idea of Michael with that woman in that way is not pleasant to say the least. It is much easier to handle if I tell myself it never happened.
    However today, I have begun to wonder if I might have to think it over again, although I definitely hate the idea of it. When the pictures of Prince showing signs of Vitiligo surfaced a few weeks ago, I felt sorry for him. The disease seriously crippled his dad emotionally and it broke my heart that Prince seemed to have inherited it from him. But at the same time I felt confused. Why had the doctors allowed this to happen? Assuming that Debbie was inseminated, I took it for granted that the sperm had been tested for Vitiligo prior to the insemination. I could not make sense of it. Of course, there is always the possibility of a test going wrong or maybe you cannot test for Vitiligo in the first place, I am no expert…but still. I decided to let it go, that is until this morning when I just happened to read this. I suddenly realized that the best explanation had been staring me right in my face all the time: Prince was most likely conceived the old-fashioned way.
    I may be wrong and quite frankly I do not mind being wrong here, somehow it just makes sense right now…
    I do not know what Debbie is like. It’s not her fault that she is average when it comes to looks, so I do not want to judge her in any way, although she seems like a rough kind of person, not a perfect match for gentle Michael. What do I know? Michael wanted kids, she was there, she was willing, and the rest is history…
    *sigh*
    I need a strong drink.
    Oh God…
    *falls to her knees*
    PROVE ME WRONG SOMEONE, PLEASE!

  34. Sabine says:

    I could be wrong, but as far as I now you can't test sperm for vitiligo, and even if they could -- what could be done about it? There is no cure.
    I wonder why though we take the leap from either Prince is NOT Michael's to then, if he is MIchael's biological child, he must have had sex with Debbie. Debbie could have very well been artificially inseminated with Michael's sperm -- I will choose this option over Michael having sex with her any day.

    And why not? It's perfectly common in this day and age.

    I don't think Michael had any real affection for her, and I really don't think Michael would have sex with a woman if he didn't at the very least love her in a sexual way. But I could definitely be wrong.

    I think it's pretty easy to see what Debbie is about if not what she is like.

    She is a mother who sold her children for a price, who had little to nothing to do with them from the time they were born until the present, who offered her womb up to a married man and who willingly gave up her parental rights.

    I'll also never forget how she testified for the prosecution in Michael's trial. Sure, her testimony worked for his benefit, but what kind of "wife", mother, friend does that?

    If that's not betrayal I don't know what is.

    During the trial for when she gave up her parental rights, Debbie testified that she had never made contact with the children or tried to see them in two years because they didn't "need her for anything" and she felt she didn't have anything to offer them.

    Debbie wanted to possess Michael, like an art collector wants to possess an object. To take pictures with him and parade him around to all her friends "Oooooo, look at what I got".

    She didn't want to have a relationship with him. She was an uber fan that got lucky. Actions speak louder than words.

    She offered Michael what he so desperately wanted and in a world where someone he could trust was far and few between, after being betrayed time and time again, desperate times calling for desperate measures, Michael went for it.

    Little did she know, though, Michael was not about to be "possessed" by any one. Once he had what he wanted he gave her a couple of millions and sent her packing.

    Has nothing to do with how attractive Debbie is for me. Beauty is what is on the inside and this woman has shown her insides very clearly. Not all, I'm sure she has lots of good qualities, but last I heard she was hanging around Michael's grave with Mark Lester. Like I said, actions speak louder than words.

  35. irune says:

    I´m agree
    I don´t like Debbie because i think there´s something wrong with her, i think is not love to Michael but it´s probably real and pathological obsession. And that actually remains in her, i think.
    I didn´t comment it before because w hen i read it, i felt myself restless. Maybe it´s because i feel all Michael´s desperation and all Debbie´s hate and obsession. She´s her friend not because he needs her but because she needs a little piece of Michael , at any price. I know there´s a lot of people that once in life would do anything for being with another person although it means to suffer some kind of abuse, although it means to put price on theirselves or even knowing that the other person is not in love.

    In this story there are three persons hurt ( all of them by the same, they don´t have what they desire badly), and their attitudes and acts lead to a three heartbroken and a lot of mistrust.

    I love this story, it arouses all emotions in me, but for me sadness is what remains.

    :cwy: :heart:

  36. Sabine says:

    IRune: She´s her friend not because he needs her but because she needs a little piece of Michael , at any price.

    I think that is so true. i guess that's why I haven't been motivated to finish this story because it's sad no one wins -- everyone ends up hurt and I prefer happy endings.

  37. CherryLeigh says:

    I feel like I can't really say anything about Debbie, but I think that it always takes two to tango. Michael agreed to what she offerend him and then got rid of her afterwards so he actually was the winner in this situation and Debbie the loser because she lost him. He used her as much as she used him it's just that it didn't happen behind their backs but rather they made an agreement on using each other and each got something out of it, too,, he his children and she the money and Michael's attention for 3 years. So I don't see why she's the bad person in this...Of course, what happened later on and what she did later on during the trial is bad but still, what has she ever really done to Michael? If it wasn't for Debbie, what would Michael have done to have a family? I think he would have found another woman to carry out his children and it would have been the same deal with her...and he eventually did with Blanket's mother. I think the reason that nobody knows her is because Michael didn't pretend to have a relationship or a marriage with her because he probably didn't have one. Prince came after the divorce from Lisa Marie when the world was still interested in everything Michael did. Blanket came in 2002 and it was only several months after his birth that the world found out. Of course everybody started searching for the mother but there was no woman in Michael's life, this time he succeeded in keeping a secret.

  38. Sabine says:

    Well, I personally don't do the whole good and bad person thing. I don't like Debbie because I think she's a user. I'm criticizing her behavior, not her person -- she can change her behavior any time she chooses.

    I can't criticize Michael and call him a user because that kind of behavior is out of character for him -- he did it out of desperation and I personally think Debbie caught him when he was vulnerable and manipulated him for her own purposes.

    Now as far as using, yeah, it's true they both used each other and I personally don't think anyone comes out a winner when you're using someone.

    What about the children? Children need a mother, and Michael did them kids a great disservice by having them with Debbie who has no desire to be a mother at all. Seems to me in that situation both Michael and Debbie were being extremely selfish and thinking only of themselves.

    I can't imagine that Prince and Paris dont' feel rejected and abandoned by her, especially now that Michael is gone. If they don't care about the fact that Debbie clearly doesn't want them, they'd be one of the first kids I've ever heard that feel like that.

    Cherry: Of course, what happened later on and what she did later on during the trial is bad but still, what has she ever really done to Michael?

    I think testifying against him in a trial when he's been accused as a pedophile is about the lowest of lows -- I don't think Debbie needed to do another thing to disqualify herself as his friend. And how about asking for MORE money? Talk about a user. Micheal and Debbie were "friends" it seemed for a long time,and then he cut her off, so he felt betrayed by her too, I think. And I mean really, with friends like Debbie and Mark Lester, Michael didn't need enemies.

    Cherry: If it wasn’t for Debbie, what would Michael have done to have a family? I think he would have found another woman to carry out his children and it would have been the same deal with her…

    Well, really the possibilities are endless. If Debbie didn't interfere, Lisa and Michael might have worked out their issues and she might have given him a few of those kids he wanted. He could have went on to have a real relationship with someone who genuinely loved and cared for him, a real marriage and a healthy family. Why would it have to be more of the same?

    Debbie's interference and enabling of him was completely dysfunctional, IMO.

    Cherry: and he eventually did with Blanket’s mother.

    Yep it's true that really, no one knows the deal with Blankets mother and I say bravo to Michael for that. This is part of what I was talking about in Understanding Michael. It's really none of the worlds business even though we might be dying to know. I say good for him, for keeping that secret, because we didn't need to know.

    Cherry: I think the reason that nobody knows her is because Michael didn’t pretend to have a relationship or a marriage with her because he probably didn’t have one.

    Or maybe he finally realized he didn't have to share every single nuance of his life with the world and the public and that it was actually quite healthy for him. It wouldn't be too hard for Michael to have a woman and keep it out of the public eye.

    Cherry: Prince came after the divorce from Lisa Marie when the world was still interested in everything Michael did. Blanket came in 2002 and it was only several months after his birth that the world found out. Of course everybody started searching for the mother but there was no woman in Michael’s life, this time he succeeded in keeping a secret.

    As far as I'm concerned the world has always been super interested in everything Michael did. Remember that movie with Jim Carey or have you ever seen it, Truman Show?

    That movie reminds me of Michael. I always wondered if he saw it and related to the character.

    I don't think it can be said because no one found out who Blanket mother's was then therefore that means there was no woman in Michael's life.

    Blanket came from somewhere. She really was in his life in some capacity and the fact that Michael could come home with a baby and say this is my baby, no explanations to the public, to me that makes Michael the man.

    I always like to imagine Michael cuddled up to Blanket's mother every night with no one the wiser.

    Cherry: this time he succeeded in keeping a secret.

    OH I think Michael had lots of secrets. :smile: And good for him. He needed that space.

  39. CherryLeigh says:

    I don't how how quoting works here so I'm just gonna answer paragraph by paragraph

    1. You write that you don't think of Michael as a user but then you say that both Debbie and he used each other. I agree that generelly Michael wasn't an abusive person and didn't use people for his own gain but
    then I think it's the same with Debbie. We don't know her so we can't generalize. Personally, I think
    in this case they used each other equally and for Michael it was clearly more of a win situation than Debbie.
    Now, it's true that if anybody are the losers in this, it's the KIDS. Michael did a great job as a father to them and I think they didn't feel as if something was missing in their lives because he took both roles but it might be difficult for them now to really accept Debbie as their mother and to understand why things went the way they did. I really wonder what they're going to tell the kids about her and Michael's deal, the truth?
    Frank Tyson said that the kids know who she is, that they respect her and it is what it is but I think it's going to hurt them to find out the truth in detail. So in that sense, they are the losers. I think it's pretty bad that two adults decided to make a monetary deal about having children anyway...but as I said, they adored him because he was the perfect father most of the time and so I think his love or the memory of it will get them through.
    Oh and I don't think that Debbie truly never wanted them. I think at some point she might have changed her mind but due to the agreement she had with Michael, she was not supposd to be part of their lives from the beginning. Still, people change their opinion, people regret decisions...

    2. I don't think the possibilites were endless for Michael to have a family, at least not in his own mind.
    In the Shumley tapes he said that after the divorce Lisa begged him to take her back, promising that she would give him 10 children and so on. And he said at that point the had become too hardheated about the whole thing so I don't think that if it wasn't for Debbie, he would have taken Lisa back or they would have got back together. I mean they saw quite a lot of each other after their divorce as we know but they never were a couple again so they just weren't meant to be imo.
    I also believe that he didn't think he could have a relationship with someone he truly loved. That's what I wrote a few days ago, I think after his marriage failed he might have been pretty disillusioned with love and he himself said that it was difficult to live with him, he couldn't be married all the time, he needed his freedom, he did his thing for kids and women became jealous because of that and so on. I think he really didn't believe he could have a real relationship with someone anymore because of the way he lived and the way he was, just my personal opinion. Plus, he wanted children NOW, he had wanted them with Lisa badly but two years passed and nothing happened because she didn't want to. He didn't want to wait any longer imo, "losing" time by finding someone, trying to find out whether they could be trusted and whether things would work between them and so on. I really believe Lisa was, in his mind, the perfect girl for him and when it didn't work for the two of them he thought, ok, I'm going to have a family without a relationship or a marriage because I want children now and I'll do it my way. This is pure speculation of course but to me it make sense.

    3. Yes, I know the Truman Show, great movie! Now that you mention it I see the paralelIs so I'm glad that there were things Michael could keep secret because it was nobody's business but his. And I agree, it's good that we don't know who Blanket's mother is but I hope Blanket will know someday, if he wants to.
    Never mind the whole world but I really hope the children will know what went on, who they are, if they want to. I'm afraid one day they might be angry with Michael for doing what he did in order to have children ,on the other hand, he gave them everything they needed so it might not be as bad, after all.

    Well, I don't know, I just go with what I heard and read. Michael told Bashir that Blanket's mother was a surrogate mother and then he told him that he had a relationship with her, so two versions, we don't know which is true but I think it's the first. I'm not saying he didn't have any girlfriends in his life that we know nothing about, I hope so, I just don't think that Blanket's mother was one of them. Just an observation, no judgement.

    4. Well, everybody needs the space of being able to keep stuff that they don't want anybody to know secret. It's just that after he died, more and more things came out, often things I didn't even want to know and so I hope people will just shut about that eventually (I know though they won't when there's money to be made...). Of course, many of these "secrets" were lies, Klein and Jason's gay lover story e.g. :sick:

    Michael remains a mystery but on the other hand he is so easy to understand, too...

  40. Sabine says:

    Cherry: I don't how how quoting works here so I'm just gonna answer paragraph by paragraph

    Isn't there a little quote button by the names -- it should be there. NOw let me warn, you, I actually LIKE to debate. :devil:

    Cherry: 1. You write that you don't think of Michael as a user but then you say that both Debbie and he used each other.

    A person who smokes a cigarette once or even a couple of times is not a smoker, just like a person who drives once or twice isn't a driver. They don't become a driver or a smoker until they engage in the behavior consistently. Michael wasn't a user because that wasn't his default way of interacting w/ people, whereas, to me Debbie's behavior over a course of several years proves that she consistently uses people to get what she wants.

    Cherry: I agree that generelly Michael wasn't an abusive person and didn't use people for his own gain but
    then I think it's the same with Debbie. We don't know her so we can't generalize.

    I'm not generalizing, I'm asessing Debbie's behavior. A person can be a user without being necessarily abusive. Debbie definitely used Michael for her own personal gain. That's not generalizing -- that's pointing to specific behavior.

    Cherry: Personally, I think in this case they used each other equally and for Michael it was clearly more of a win situation than Debbie.

    Well, like I said, to me when people use each other no one wins. It's dysfunctional.

    Cherry: Now, it's true that if anybody are the losers in this, it's the KIDS. Michael did a great job as a father to them and I think they didn't feel as if something was missing in their lives because he took both roles but it might be difficult for them now to really accept Debbie as their mother and to understand why things went the way they did. I really wonder what they're going to tell the kids about her and Michael's deal, the truth?

    it's hard to miss what you've never had, but I'm sure there is a void in them that has never been fulfilled, something that MIchael could not give them that all children need. I believe spiritually there's a reason it takes a mother and a father to make a child -- the child needs that balance of two inputs into their development. Michael was a great father, but he could never be those kids mother.

    Cherry: Frank Tyson said that the kids know who she is, that they respect her and it is what it is but I think it's going to hurt them to find out the truth in detail.

    I always take with a grain of salt comments to the press for the public consumption. What is he going to say? The kids are fucked up and Debbie has never given a damn about them? He was being politically correct.

    Cherry: Oh and I don't think that Debbie truly never wanted them. I think at some point she might have changed her mind but due to the agreement she had with Michael, she was not supposd to be part of their lives from the beginning. Still, people change their opinion, people regret decisions...

    To me actions speak louder than words. Debbie voluntarily and legally gave up her rights as a parent. A person who wants to be a parent doesn't do that. She, I believe, once she understood that the children and Michael were not a package deal, decided ah, hell, give me the money. She was going to go along with being part of their lives if she got to be a part of Michael's life but Michael didn't want that, so she was like, what's the use?

    Yes, people change their minds and regret decisions, but I haven't seen any action on Debbie's part to support that. She's been pretty consistently an absent and irresponsible person in regards to the children from the very beginning up until the present.

    Cherry: 2. I don't think the possibilites were endless for Michael to have a family, at least not in his own mind.

    I really don't think any of us can be as presumptuous to say what was going on in Michael's mind. I know we speculate like crazy, but only Michael knew what he felt and thought.

    Cherry: In the Shumley tapes he said that after the divorce Lisa begged him to take her back, promising that she would give him 10 children and so on. And he said at that point the had become too hardheated about the whole thing so I don't think that if it wasn't for Debbie, he would have taken Lisa back or they would have got back together. I mean they saw quite a lot of each other after their divorce as we know but they never were a couple again so they just weren't meant to be imo.

    I personally believe Michael was performing when he interviewed with Schmuley so I try to filter what Michael said in that interview. Schmuley asked him a lot of leading questions and tried to influene Michael's answers. Lots of times I believe Michael told him what he wanted to here. Michael was trained from a young age how to give an interview. So I don't think he was always being his true self.

    I think it's faulty logic to conclude that since Michael was pissed off at Lisa for lying to him and didn't want to have kids with her because of it that this feeling was written in stone. Couples get mad at each other all the time and then they also make up. If Debbie wasn't being an enabler, Michael would have seen at least at the time, Lisa as his only option for having children and maybe his heart would have softened. Who knows? Debbie was the "other woman" that Michael could run to, and she has to take responsibility for being that for him.

    Cherry: I also believe that he didn't think he could have a relationship with someone he truly loved. That's what I wrote a few days ago, I think after his marriage failed he might have been pretty disillusioned with love and he himself said that it was difficult to live with him, he couldn't be married all the time, he needed his freedom, he did his thing for kids and women became jealous because of that and so on. I think he really didn't believe he could have a real relationship with someone anymore because of the way he lived and the way he was, just my personal opinion.

    Well, I hear you. I mean I think there's a lot of truth in what you've said. It's pure speculation though, based only on opinion. No one knows. It makes a lot of sense but we can never know how true that was. I personally hope it wasn't true but Michael seemed so sad for so long, it probably was.

    Cherry: Plus, he wanted children NOW, he had wanted them with Lisa badly but two years passed and nothing happened because she didn't want to. He didn't want to wait any longer imo, "losing" time by finding someone, trying to find out whether they could be trusted and whether things would work between them and so on. I really believe Lisa was, in his mind, the perfect girl for him and when it didn't work for the two of them he thought, ok, I'm going to have a family without a relationship or a marriage because I want children now and I'll do it my way. This is pure speculation of course but to me it make sense.

    I think Lisa was a rebound girl and supposed to give him the family, that I agree, he wanted forget NOW but YESTERDAY. Hungry people make poor shoppers so that didn't work out. By that time Michael got to Debbie he was starving so we know how that went.

    If Michael took the time to try to fulfill his dreams not in desperation but with conscious thinking and planning -- like he did his career, he would have had better success. This wasn't impossible. Michael knew how to do it in work -- he just needed to learn how to do it in his personal life.

    All the people who enabled him were stumbling blocks to his own personal growth. Debbie included.

    Cherry: 3. Yes, I know the Truman Show, great movie! Now that you mention it I see the paralelIs so I'm glad that there were things Michael could keep secret because it was nobody's business but his. And I agree, it's good that we don't know who Blanket's mother is but I hope Blanket will know someday, if he wants to.

    Isn't it a sad movie? Like how at the end, when Truman walks off the show everyone just kind of goes, okay, what else is on? They were only interested in him when he was a show -- that's like Michael. And how they manipulated his life and his reality, lying to him with no problem -- it was horrible!!!!

    I do hope Michael told Blanket who his mother was or that he knew her or he left a letter or something!

    Cherry: Well, I don't know, I just go with what I heard and read. Michael told Bashir that Blanket's mother was a surrogate mother and then he told him that he had a relationship with her, so two versions,

    :lol: Yeah I always laugh at the sneaky little look on Michael's face when he told Bashir that he had sex with Blanket's mother. It's such a rude question! I think subconsciously, though not consciously, Michael was starting to feel that he couldn't trust Bashir and like we all do when we feel we're talking to someone we can't trust, we bullshit them, so Michael told Bashir two different contradictory things.

    Cherry: we don't know which is true but I think it's the first. I'm not saying he didn't have any girlfriends in his life that we know nothing about, I hope so, I just don't think that Blanket's mother was one of them. Just an observation, no judgement.

    Well, I hear you but it's not based on anything logically. It's just an opinion based on assumptions and conclusions I think you've made about Michael in your own mind -- I personally think Michael had girlfriends that we know nothing about.

    Cherry: 4. Well, everybody needs the space of being able to keep stuff that they don't want anybody to know secret. It's just that after he died, more and more things came out, often things I didn't even want to know and so I hope people will just shut about that eventually (I know though they won't when there's money to be made...). Of course, many of these "secrets" were lies, Klein and Jason's gay lover story e.g. :sick:

    I distrust anyone who talks for money -- anyone who came out of the woodworks after Michael died. Michael's true friends are going to keep their mouth shut about his personal life because they know he didn't want his business in the streets, it's just that simple. Are there tidbits of truth in the stories that have been leaked?

    Sure, but I don't like looking through trash for something salvageable, you never know IF there's ANY truth In there, and the truth is always tainted by the garbage.

    Cherry: Michael remains a mystery but on the other hand he is so easy to understand, too...

    I think we can try to understand Michael and we can feel like we do in many ways, but like all of us, Michael was a multifaceted, complex man with many layers -- maybe even more so because of who he was and how he lived, so I think it's a mistake to ever really believe that you "got" him. There's just too much that is unknown.

    Years and years from now, people will be writing books and talking about him and still be trying to figure him out, like most great men in our history.

  41. CherryLeigh says:

    Well, I really have to say a few things to what you wrote but I can't figure out how to quote. :unsure: There is this button but when I click it I see all you wrote and then some html signs of whatever in between. Can you explain to me how I do it right so that it looks like your last entry?

  42. Sabine says:

    Up at the top, next to date, it should say """(quote comment)" in parenthesis. You should be able to click that and quote the comment.

    What surfer are you using, Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari?

  43. CherryLeigh says:

    I'm using Firefox. Yes, it says "quote comment" but when I click on it your comment appears as a whole and I don't know how to divide it into paragraphs and quote one by one like you do.

  44. Sabine says:

    Click quote comment, erase the parts you don't want, put in your reply and just keep doing that.

    or control C (copy) over the code that appears in front of the comment and Control V (paste) it in front of all the comments you want to quote me. Just remember to close the code with < / blockquote > without putting in the spaces after my comment and before you reply.

  45. Anonymous says:

    Okay, to see if this works

    Michael wasn’t a user because that wasn’t his default way of interacting w/ people, whereas, to me Debbie’s behavior over a course of several years proves that she consistently uses people to get what she wants.

    Okay, can you give me another example ? I honestly don't know what you mean because I haven't followed Debbie's life at all.

  46. Anonymous says:

    Hmm no, now my comment is in your quote, that's why I meant, how do I keep them seperate?

  47. Sabine says:

    It seems like you didn't close the block quote. to do that, you have to put in I put in spaces so you can see the code, take the space out to close the block quote and the text will no longer be indented.

    It will look like this: < blockquote > to start quoting and then < / blockquote > to end the quote ( remove the spaces though or it won't work)

    Cherry: Okay, can you give me another example ? I honestly don’t know what you mean because I haven’t followed Debbie’s life at all.

    Debbie has been to court several times asking for compensation from Michael, well passed the initial amount he gave her.

    In the real world, when you give up your parental rights to the other parent and have nothing to do with the care of the kids YOU should pay child support to the parent that is taking care of them.

    The last time, AFTER his death, Debbie had her attorney file a petition for LIFETIME compensation. Then she put in a petition for custody, even though she gave up her parental rights, and then quielty dropped it when Katherine slid her a cool $4 million. Still, she ask that the Jackson estate pay for her legal costs - the cost of hiring her attorneys to file her petition.

    I think that is USER behavior.

  48. CherryLeigh says:

    I can't believe it, I just wrote this really long post, commenting on your comments and then it was all gone! :cwy: :cwy: :cwy:

    Okay, I'll sum it up now.

    1. To me winning means getting something you wanted and being happy upon obtaining it. So that's why to me Michael had taken a chance and won.

    2. Well, of coruse you haven't seen Debbie behave differently! We don't know what has been going on between Debbie and the family since Michael did, just because it wasn't in the newspapers that Debbie had been with the kids and Katherine and that the two women got along well with each other doesn't mean it didn't happen. We always say we don't know everything about Michael so we also have to apply this to other people. Katherine said that Debbie was a help to her and that contrary to what the press wrote she has not filed for custody, she will be there if the kids need her. Fans have reported that Debbie was hat Michael's grave, crying and talking about him and she seemed genuinly sad so I think she has changed and she has regrets.
    I think the kids might be pissed at her in the future but right now I believe what Frank Tyson said, he wasn't just being politically correct imo. I mean, how can you be mad at somebody that hasn't been in your life, that you don't know, that you never had any meaningful interaction with..I think the kids might be confused but I don't believe they're mad at her because they didn't miss her all their lives. And I doubt that the family introduced her saying Kids, this is your mother but she wasn't there before because she didn't give a damn about you. They surely will be mad someday at her and at Michael, too, though.

    I really don’t think any of us can be as presumptuous to say what was going on in Michael’s mind.I know we speculate like crazy, but only Michael knew what he felt and thought.

    Exactly, as I said, I'm just speculating!

    I personally believe Michael was performing when he interviewed with Schmuley so I try to filter what Michael said in that interview.Schmuley asked him a lot of leading questions and tried to influene Michael’s answers.Lots of times I believe Michael told him what he wanted to here.Michael was trained from a young age how to give an interview. So I don’t think he was always being his true self.

    I think this is true for a huge part of the tapes but I don't see why he should have lied to the Rabbi about Lisa concerning the letters she wrote him, begging him to take her back , offering him to have his children and so on. Why would that be what the Rabbi wants to hear? Lisa even wrote it on her blog, after the divorce she spent some years obsessing about him and what she could have done different, in regret. So I think it's true what Michael said about her and also, that he at that point had become too hardhearted about it all.

    I think it’s faulty logic to conclude that since Michael was pissed off at Lisa for lying to him and didn’t want to have kids with her because of it that this feeling was written in stone. Couples get mad at each other all the time and then they also make up.If Debbie wasn’t being an enabler, Michael would have seen at least at the time, Lisa as his only option for having children and maybe his heart would have softened.Who knows?

    Right, who know? But It's been said before that Michael could do quite a quick and thorough job of excluding people from his life once they had disappointed or angered him and so I can really imagine that at least for a while he didn't want to have anythingt do with Lisa. Again, I'm speculating but it makes sense to me.

    Debbie was the “other woman” that Michael could run to, andshe has to take responsibility for being that for him.

    Woooow, this is where I soooo disagree with you! In my opinion it's NOT HER responsabilty that Michael took up the offer she made him in order to help him get what he wanted. This is what I meant when I said that so many people always see him as the victim of his own decisions, as if he wasn't a grown man with a sense of responsabilty. He was a man on a mission, he wanted children and yeah, Debbie knew how desperate he was but nobody forced him to go to her. He COULD have gone back to Lisa, taking up her offer of giving him "9 children", but he decided not to give them another chance but to go to Debbie instead. He decied that so I don't see how it's her fault that he did this. You get offerend something and you can decide to take it or leave it. Everybody is responsible for their own lives and decisions and I really can't stand when people try to exlude Michael from this principle of life that we all have to deal with.

    If Michael took the time to try to fulfill his dreams not in desperation but with conscious thinking and planning — like he did his career, he would have had better success.This wasn’t impossible.Michael knew how to do it in work — he just needed to learn how to do it in his personal life.

    Amen!

    Isn’t it a sad movie? Like how at the end, when Truman walks off the show everyone just kind of goes, okay, what else is on?They were only interested in him when he was a show — that’s like Michael.And how they manipulated his life and his reality, lying to him with no problem — it was horrible!!!!

    Totally! :cwy:

    .It’s such a rude question! I think subconsciously, though not consciously, Michael was starting to feel that he couldn’t trust Bashir and like we all do when we feel we’re talking to someone we can’t trust, we bullshit them, so Michael told Bashir two different contradictory things.

    It IS such a rude question, sometimes I can't believe what people dared to ask him in front of a camera. Jesus!

    Well, I hear you but it’s not based on anything logically.It’s just an opinion based on assumptions and conclusions I think you’ve made about Michael in your own mind — I personally think Michael had girlfriends that we know nothing about.

    I didn't say he didn't have that, quite the opposite. I just said that I don't believe Blanket's mother was one of his girlfriends. I think he just said that to Bashir to add a little bit of normalcy to the circumstances of Blanket's birth, just as he said to him that he had sex with Debbie. Yeah right. :smile:

    I distrust anyone who talks for money — anyone who came out of the woodworks after Michael died. Michael’s true friends are going to keep their mouth shut about his personal life because they know he didn’t want his business in the streets, it’s just that simple.Are there tidbits of truth in the stories that have been leaked?
    Sure, but I don’t like looking through trash for something salvageable, you never know IF there’s ANYtruth In there, and the truth is always tainted by the garbage.

    That's SO true! I really wish people would spread all the good things he did in his life and keep telling stories about how funny and nice he was because there are still to many idiots out there who think he was a freak, and just eave his private BS alone and stop telling lies. The truth about everybody is bad enough without some assholes going around spreading half or untruths about Michael. Nobody needs that.

    I think we can try to understand Michael and we can feel like we do in many ways, but like all of us, Michael was a multifaceted, complex man with many layers — maybe even more so because of who he was and how he lived, so I think it’s a mistake to ever really believe that you “got” him.There’s just too much that is unknown.Years and years from now, people will be writing books and talking about him andstill be trying to figure him out, like most great men in our history.

    True! While I do believe that I get him concerning some issues (sometimes because I see parallels between him and me) I know that I will never completely know him because I've never met him, never spoken to him one on one and I never will.

  49. Sabine says:

    Hey I stepped away but I'm back now.

    Hmmmm, let's see:

    Cherry: Well, of coruse you haven’t seen Debbie behave differently! We don’t know what has been going on between Debbie and the family since Michael did, just because it wasn’t in the newspapers that Debbie had been with the kids and Katherine and that the two women got along well with each other doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

    You're right! It hasn't been in the papers that the two women got along well with each other, but how we know that what didn't happen is because of what WAS reported.

    Cherry: We always say we don’t know everything about Michael so we also have to apply this to other people.

    I agree, but that means also not dismissing and ignoring what IS reported and stands unrefuted. Because what WAS in the papers is that Debbie went to court to try and gain custody, which is really laughable because what she wanted to do was reinstate the parental rights that SHE voluntarily gave up.

    So you just can't dismiss her own actions. She gave up her parental rights. She dropped her custody suit once she was given $4 millions. She peitioned Jackson's estate to pay for her legal actions. No one else did that. She did. These actions are in opposition to a concerned parent, interested in having a relationship with their child.

    Cherry: Katherine said that Debbie was a help to her and that contrary to what the press wrote she has not filed for custody, she will be there if the kids need her.

    Actions speak louder than words. What did Katherine give Debbie $4 million for? Cause she liked her. Remember, Michael left Debbie nothing in his will. Why? Because he already paid her. Debbie just wanted more money, and Katherine who loves to enable her children, was once again lying and covering up for Michael's public statement that Debbie was cut off.

    Cherry: Fans have reported that Debbie was hat Michael’s grave, crying and talking about him and she seemed genuinly sad so I think she has changed and she has regrets.

    Oh, yeah, I read about that. Mark Lester was sitting right in the car at the time. I am always amazed that it only takes a few tears for people to believe that someone has a change of heart.

    I really am a person who watches a person's behavior, and over time too. Someone can't just announce, I'm sorry! I changed! And get me to believe that they have.

    Cherry: I mean, how can you be mad at somebody that hasn’t been in your life, that you don’t know, that you never had any meaningful interaction with..

    How many adopted children seek out the parents who gave them up wanting to know, why didn't you want me? How many children are furious at parents who left them at a young age them -- they want to know: Why didn't you want me?
    A child views a parent who "leaves" them as rejecting and abandoning them -- it's like a text book reaction that the child will probably feel a huge sense of loss and devalued at the parents seeming rejection of them.

    Cherry: I think the kids might be confused but I don’t believe they’re mad at her because they didn’t miss her all their lives. And I doubt that the family introduced her saying Kids, this is your mother but she wasn’t there before because she didn’t give a damn about you. They surely will be mad someday at her and at Michael, too, though.

    Children just don't start getting mad when they are adults. They get mad as children too, and they "act out" -- pee on the bed, stop doing school work, hurt themselves, fight in school, begin destructive behavior -- because they don't know how to express anger. NO one needs to tell the children that Debbie abandoned them. Once they realize or are told that she's they're mother, they will know she was absent for most of their lives and question why. When they look around and see all the other Mommies loving their child they'll ask, what's wrong with this picture. Especially since Michael is now gone. One of the questions might be IF YOU WERE THERE, maybe you could have HELPED DADDY!

    Cherry: I think this is true for a huge part of the tapes but I don’t see why he should have lied to the Rabbi about Lisa concerning the letters she wrote him, begging him to take her back , offering him to have his children and so on. Why would that be what the Rabbi wants to hear? Lisa even wrote it on her blog, after the divorce she spent some years obsessing about him and what she could have done different, in regret. So I think it’s true what Michael said about her and also, that he at that point had become too hardhearted about it all.

    I don't think he was lying about that part. My point was with Debbie out of the picture there was a greater chance that Micheal MIGHT have forgave Lisa and changed his mind. That or forgot to pull out or wear a condom 'cause Lisa was making him feel so good :lol:

    Cherry: It’s been said before that Michael could do quite a quick and thorough job of excluding people from his life once they had disappointed or angered him and so I can really imagine that at least for a while he didn’t want to have anythingt do with Lisa. Again, I’m speculating but it makes sense to me.

    That's true, and for a while he DID cut her off, but he took her back, at least to sleep w/ her and spend time with her, and with Debbie out of the picture that would have been sooner rather than later. Debbie interfered and she shouldn't have.

    Sabine: Debbie was the “other woman” that Michael could run to, andshe has to take responsibility for being that for him.

    Cherry: Woooow, this is where I soooo disagree with you! In my opinion it’s NOT HER responsabilty that Michael took up the offer she made him in order to help him get what he wanted.

    Do you see what you've written here. You're right! It's NOT HER responsibility that Michael TOOK up the OFFER that SHE MADE HIM in order to help him get what he wanted.

    What Debbie has to take responsibility for is the offer that SHE MadE TO HIM -- interfering in the between two married people and offering a solution to a problem that existed between the two of them.

    Many wives would have kicked Debbie's ass. The fact that Michael wanted children and Lisa didn't want to give it to him was a problem between the two of them, and Debbie interfered.

    Cherry: This is what I meant when I said that so many people always see him as the victim of his own decisions, as if he wasn’t a grown man with a sense of responsabilty.

    Well, I read that sentence as you trying to hold him responsible for Debbie's actions. Everyone is responsible for what they decide/chose to do.

    No one makes anyone do anything. Michael has to take responsibility for his choices but Michael was surrounded by manipulative, dishonest users who wanted to extort things from him. They must take responsibility for that behavior -- he can't do it for them.

    Cherry: He was a man on a mission, he wanted children and yeah, Debbie knew how desperate he was but nobody forced him to go to her.

    It would have been hard as hell for him to go to her if she WASN'T THERE and if she hadn't opened her BIG MOUTH and offered her womb up to him for a price!

    Cherry: He COULD have gone back to Lisa, taking up her offer of giving him “9 children”, but he decided not to give them another chance but to go to Debbie instead.

    Shamone now, the woman told him no. So why would he go back when he had this woman telling him yes? I can understand why Michael would have said, like Eddie Murphy said, F -you and your P- - - - Y, Lisa. :lol: He felt betrayed by her.

    He decied that so I don’t see how it’s her fault that he did this.

    It's her fault that she was there, in between them and that she offered.

    Cherry: You get offerend something and you can decide to take it or leave it.

    It's funny to me that you take it as a given that Debbie offered it to him but see no reason to give her responsibility for that. You say it over and over: SHE OFFERED.

    Cherry: Everybody is responsible for their own lives and decisions and I really can’t stand when people try to exlude Michael from this principle of life that we all have to deal with.

    Well, as I've tried to describe, trying to make Michael responsible for the manipulation of others is just not fair. Debbie is a big girl, she can own being an enabler and a user. She won't break.

    :tongue:

    Cherry: I didn’t say he didn’t have that, quite the opposite. I just said that I don’t believe Blanket’s mother was one of his girlfriends. I think he just said that to Bashir to add a little bit of normalcy to the circumstances of Blanket’s birth, just as he said to him that he had sex with Debbie. Yeah right. :smile:

    There's no reason to think that Blanket's mother wasn't with Michael at all, that's what I was pointing out -- I wasn't saying you said he didn't have that, I was stating my opinion that I believe he did have girlfriends we didn't know about.

    Cherry:True! While I do believe that I get him concerning some issues (sometimes because I see parallels between him and me) I know that I will never completely know him because I’ve never met him, never spoken to him one on one and I never will.

    I love collecting quotes and one of my favorites is, We see people not as they are, but as we are.

    I always try to remember that when we are trying to understand another person we bring alot of our own prejudgments and opinions with us. I believe to truly "get" another person, you got to kind of let go of that and try and think as the other person would think and see things from their point of view, which is super hard, but I think in the end worth it! :wub:

  50. CherryLeigh says:

    Oh no, I forgot to add the /, I'm sorry! Can you delete the previous one?

    Sabine: Actions speak louder than words.What did Katherine give Debbie $4 million for?Cause she liked her.Remember, Michael left Debbie nothing in his will.Why?Beause he already paid her.Debbie just wanted more money, and Katherine who loves to enable her children, was once again lying and covering up for Michael’s public statement that Debbie was cut off.

    Katherine gave Debbie $4 million after Michael's death??? Really? Ok, I didn't know that either. As I said, I really didn't follow all the mess around the children and who gets custody and who gets money and so on...But yeah, she doesn't have a right to this money imo.

    Sabine: How many adopted children seek out the parents who gave them up wanting to know, why didn’t you want me? How many children are furious at parents who left them at a young age them — they want to know: Why didn’t you want me?A child views a parent who “leaves” them as rejecting and abandoning them — it’s like a text book reaction that the child will probably feel a huge sense of loss and devalued at the parents seeming rejection of them.

    One of the girls I met through Michael was born in Nepal and then adopted by a German couple when she was just a baby I think. We talked about Michael and his children and biological parents vs. the people who raise you and so on. She said she is not angry or feels rejected because she felt loved and supported by the only people she ever called parents. So I don't know if it's necessarily that way for any child. I mean, I didn't check any statistics or psychological studies about that...
    My parents divorced when I was 7 or 8 years old and my sister 4 or 5 and we stayed with our mother. My father has been in a lot of trouble all his life so for long periods of time he wasn't even able to see us every second weekend of the month and I felt kind of left alone by him because he just couldn't get his life back on track, he gambled, drank and had debts up to here. He became completely disfunctional as a father and as a member of society really. I asked him once why, if nothing else was, my sister and I weren't motivation enough for him to stop and all he said was I don't know. So sometimes parents can cause more damage for having been there and then leaving you because of their disfunctional lifestyle than if they had never been there in the first place and instead another person who loves you took care of you, like my mom did for me and Michael did for his children.

    Sabine:Children just don’t start getting mad when they are adults.They get mad as children to, and they “act out” — pee on the bed, stop doing school work, hurt themselves, begin destructive behavior — because they don’t know how to express anger. NO one needs to tell the children that Debbie abandoned them. Once they realize or are told that she’s they’re mother, they will know she was absent for most of their lives and question why.Especially since Michael is now gone.One of the questions might be IF YOU WERE THERE, maybe you could have HELPED DADDY!

    True. But I think they will realise soon enough that she couldn't have.

    Sabine:Do you see what you’ve written here. It’s NOT HER responsibility that Michael TOOK up the OFFER that SHE MADE HIM in order to help him get what he wanted.What Debbie has to take responsibility for is the offer that SHE ME TO HIM — interfering in the between two married people and offering a solution to a problem that existed between the two of them.Many wives would have kicked Debbie’s ass.The fact that Michael wanted children and she didn’t want to give it to him was a problem between the two of them, and Debbie interfered.

    Ok, what I meant was this: That she made the offer to him after he told her how heartbroken he was about the fact that Lisa didn't want to have his children is her action thus her responsabilty. Yes, this happened while he was technically still married to Lisa and she probably wasn't only thinking of him and his happiness. But it is not her responsabilty that Michael took up the offer! I mean if I offer you millions of dollars for you to let me publish your stories then I'm bad for offering this to you, for wanting to take somebody else's intellectual property and sell it as my own but it would be your decision to say yes or no to this offer and thus your responsabilty for that decision and for the consequences it has in your life.

    Sabine:Well, I read that sentence as you trying to hold him responsible for Debbie’s actions.

    Not at all, I'm holding him responsbile for HIS actions.

    Sabine:Everyone is responsible for what they decide/chose to do.No one makes anyone do anything. Michael has to take responsibility for his choices

    Exactly! We're on the same page about that, after all.

    Sabine:but Michael was surrounded by manipulative, dishonest users who wanted to extort things from him.They must take responsibility for that behavior — he can’t do it for them.

    Yes he was and of course they have to take responsabilty for what they did to him but he should have gotten rid of them once he saw that they were manipulative and dishonest, he should have surrounded himself with people that were good fo him and that is also a decision that you take yourself. You can consiously decide to eliminate people who bring drama and bad energy from your life, it's one of the things you have to do in order to be happy. Instead, he sometimes got rid of people who truly wanted to help him and if helping entailed telling him something he didn't want to hear he withdrew from them.

    Sabine:It would have been hard as hell for him to go to her if she WASN’T THERE and if she hadn’t opened her BIG MOUTH and offered her womb up to him for a price!

    Well, he must have gone to her first and told her about Lisa, their problems and his desperation. Had he not done that, Debbie wouldn't have know that there was a situation. So I'm not saying he went to Debbie because he had their deal in mind from the beginning but had Michael not spoken about his martial problems to her in the first place I don't think Debbie would have offered what she did, I don't think she was that bold. I mean, I don't know her at all but just from my impression of her...

    Sabine:IT’s her fault that she was there, in between them and that she offered.

    Well, this sounds as if you said she was the reason for their divorce. She was not the reason why things broke apart between Lisa and Michael, this started long before from what i know. But it's true that technically they were still married when Michael told Lisa if she wasn't going to have his children, Debbie would. But I mean, as a husband he could or should have said to Debbie, look, I'm still trying to sort this out with my wife and I can't do this to her but thanks for offering, bla bla. So Michael is responsable for letting Lisa in on the news like that, for kind blackmailing her, like "if you don't do it, somebody else will". Of course that only drove them further apart and Debbie is part of this triangle but she came into picture long after the damage had been done in Lisa and Michael's relationship imo.

    Sabine:It’s funny to me that you take it as a given that Debbie offered it to him but see no reason to give her responsibility for that.You say it over and over:SHE OFFERED.

    No, I do give her responsabilty for that as I tried to explain above. Offering a still married man to carry out his children because his wife wouldn't is admittedly very brazen but it all wouldn't have happened had Michael said no to her. Now, as I tried to explain a few days ago he had his reasons for taking up her offer, I understand why he did it but but the fact that he did was his responsabilty alone. Even Karen said that sometimes, Michael behaved like a man who just did things withouth thinking about the outcome, without acknowliding the consequences and responsabilites that come with that decision. And yeah, now you will probably argument that Karen is crazy and so on but I think if she really said that, she got it right.

    Sabine:Well, as I’ve tried to describe, trying to make Michael responsible for the manipulation of others is just not fair.Debbie is a big girl, she can own being an enabler and a user.She won’t break.

    But that's exactly my point, all I want is to make him responsible for HIS decisions. He was manipulated in his life concering money and shows by his management and family but nobody had the power to manipulate him on an issue like having children imo because that was so personal and so important to him, I really believe that.

    Sabine: I was stating my opinion that I believe he did have girlfriends we didn’t know about.

    And I agree with you.

    I love collecting quotes and one of my favorites is, We see people not as they are, but as we are.I always try to remember that when we are trying to understand another person we bring a lot of our own prejudgments and opinions with us.I believe to truly “get” another person, you got to kind of let go of that and try and think as the other person would think and see things from their point of view, which is super hard, but I think in the end worth it!

    Totally, that's why I wrote "in his own mind". I tried to see things from his perspective but of course that's very hard because I don't know him personally. But when I tried to explain to Colette the reasons for not having his own bilological children (in my opinoin) or for taking up Debbie's offer I tried to tell her that from the outside it looks weird or wrong but in his own mind it all made sense and that if you think about what he might have thought, it makes sense to you, too and comforts you.

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Message from Michael

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“I just hope that one day they will be fair and portray me the way I really am, just a loving and peaceful guy.” ~ Michael

"----->His intelligence is instinctual and emotional, like a child’s. If any artist loses that childlikeness, you lose a lot of creative juice. So Michael creates around himself a world that protects his creativity”. ~ Jane Fonda

WARNING: NOT JUST MJ fanfic - NO! It's Cobracrack®. It's better than plain Michael Jackson fan fiction and highly addictive!! One hit and you will be unable to function without yet another and another. Taking a hit of Cobracrack® while looking at a Michael Jackson picture can also prove fatal. At the very least you might experience an extremely intense Mikegasm that will leave you unable to be satisfied by any other man in your lifetime. READER BEWARE!!!! 18 over, please, though age doesn't matter. It's not the adult content that's going to get you, it's the force of MICHAEL! CobraCrackCentral® is not liable for any failed tests, lost jobs or broken relationships. Married women are particular at risk. Common side effects: Reading stories over and over; referring to characters as if they are real people; intense dislike for corny Michael Jackson fan fiction; Insatiable demand for sex; inability to sleep or function due to an infection of the EXTREMELY contagious virus: OvahXspojer (staring at MJ pics for hours at a time and imagining yourself in the scenes from the stories).

If you experience any of these symptoms close your lap top/pull the plug from your computer IMMEDIATELY!

Reader Discretion is highly advised CobraCrackCentral, uh, NOT just MJ Fan Fiction