03
Aug
2010
Lisa Robinson Talks to Michael
I just love when people start pulling out all this old footage they have of Michael and sharing it with the world! YAY! ********************************
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117 Responses to “Lisa Robinson Talks to Michael”
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(Spike to Buffy, Buffy the Vampire Slayer.)
"So long as men can breathe, or eyes can see, So long lives this, and this gives life to thee." W. Shakespeare
"----->His intelligence is instinctual and emotional, like a child’s. If any artist loses that childlikeness, you lose a lot of creative juice. So Michael creates around himself a world that protects his creativity”. ~ Jane Fonda
No, I got this, that you're not talking about my whole being and that you don't judge people but behvior. But imo the way you judge my behavior equal to his...I can't accept that, that's very hard for me so yes, I don't like the words judgemental and narrow-minded but what I dislike the most is that you say, ok, Charles' behavior is narrow-minded and judgemental BECAUSE he said those things about Michael, BECAUSE he won't accept other people's opinion about him since he has a fixed image of MIchael and also BECAUSE he isn't open to understanding Michael at all. And then you say THIS BEHAVIOR IS THE SAME AS MINE, I am DOING the same he does, which would mean that I too said things about Michael that are as horrible as what he said, that I too don't accept any view but my own, that I too think I'm absolutely right about Michael all the time, that I too enjoy talking trash about him and so on.
So...you are right in saying that I can't claim my thoughts about Michael haver never ever been judgemental or rigid in nature but, to put it plainly and bluntly, I that think there's a difference between "my judgementalness" and his because he 1) doesn't feel bad about it and 2) he will never change his opinion whereas I try to hard and I listened to what you said and admitted you were right! Charles never did that and that's why I don't like that you call my behavior the same that you call his because imo it's not the same. It might not make a difference to you but to me it does but as I said, I will not wait for you to understand what I mean or to agree with me. Sometimes you literally have to agree to disagree and move on.
Okay, you're not putting them and me in the same category generally, I get that, but as you might deduce from what I say above, the behavior to me is just as important since that is what you judge a person by, their behavior. And imo my issues and reasons for my behavior sometimes is completely different from those of Charles of extreme fans. With my behavior I also hurt myself and they don't, they hurt others. As you said, I am able to reflect my behavior and admit that I am wrong and they don't. So it's not the same behavior, it just isn't in my opinion.
I am not denying my issues, I spoke about them very openly with you for everybody to read.
Michael and I, yes, that is actually very much about my dad but your comments on Charles or Yazmeen and my disagreeing with you on them doesn't have anything to do with him. I have a strong response to your comments about Charles or Yazmeen because I don't agree with them, because I look at these two differently than you do, for various reasons, one of them being that you have issues with users due to your childhood and I don't. I have different issues and ways of looking at things and if it's okay for your issues and you way of thinking to influence your opinion on Charles then it's okay for mine to influence my opinion on him, too. My opinion about him regarding his role in dispute between him and Yazmeen, mind you, not his comments on Michael!!!!
I wish you could just acknowledge that it's okay for you and I to think differently about them and that I have the right to think about them what I want because it's not like you're the authority on this and I'm just deviating from the common opinion about them. I am deviating from YOUR opinion. I see that we don't agree but I let you think about them what you want because I understand what you explained to me earlier about yourself so please just leave me room to have my own thoughts, too, without labeling them "making excuses".
Right. Yes. I like you and this site a lot and I don't want to argue either, having conversations is good but I'm running out of things to say.
I thought it was on da Bar so I went looking for it there but it seems I got something wrong so yes, tell me about it.
So I am ready to admit now that I too have been judgemental and rigid in my thinking of MIchael whenever he did something that feels criticizeable to me, that I feel I can't get over without saying he was wrong.
But I still maintain that there is a difference between my judgementalness and that of Charles' for example because I reflect about mine, I don't want to have it, I tried to get rid of it myself and I also tried to find help in doing so, meaning I talk to others about it, including you and you helped me get over it more than I expected to. My judgementalness thus is still supple, shapeable, meaning it can be overcome and I promised myself to work on that but I think for Charles it's too late and on top of that he doesn't even realize that he has it, it doesn't make him feel bad, at least it doesn't seem so because he stands by what he said about Michael.
Soooo...thank you, Sabine, for helping make me realize and admit that. I am calm right now.
I will tell you about my dream, but before I do, I want to say this (and believe it or not, we are NOW starting to get into the crux of the source of this conflict if you read on, you'll see where):
That is NOT why I believe Charles is narrow minded and judgmental. I believe Charles is narrow minded and judgmental because he did this over a period of YEARS, and it got him banned from three different sites and a reputation as being a Michael Jackson hater amongst many who were a member of the forum. He also tried to hide it, IMO. Obviously, from the blogs about Yazmeen, she got a bad reputation too. Remember the basket, if the behavior continues, then I can't take the characteristic out of the basket.
Charles at this time is being given another opportunity to change that characteristic and he refuses, and instead points his finger at Yazmeen and plays victim so I must continue to leave those qualities in his basket. At any time, he can change. It's his choice. I don't think we know if he is hurting inside and just too prideful to admit it, or if he feels bad and just won't say. I doubt it, but strangers things have happened.
I think you can say that and explain it and give me a more fuller understanding of why you have had the thoughts that you have, but the behavior/ thoughts are still the same, just the reason why is different.
NO IT DOES NOT. I said you behave in that way IN THAT ONE INSTANCE. Not consistently over time. Furthermore, I never said you said the same things about Michael that Charles did or that you always don't accept any view but your own or that you are DOING (present tense) the same thing that Charles has in the past all the time. Those words are coming from inside of you, those feelings from inside of you and not from me.
When you said for instance, that Michael said he would never do drugs in Moonwalker and was a liar because he then went on to use drugs later on in life. Yes, in that instance it WAS judgmental thinking. I hope that this thinking has changed, if so then great. If not, then continue to work on it, because IT IS judgmental. But that is ONE occasion, and I told you this like five times already, this one thought is not the sum and total of who you are. Don't you have lots of thoughts all the time!!!!?!?!?!
Why do you need me to give you permission to have your feelings? Doesn't it go w/o saying that you are allowed, as an adult, to think what you want?
If I was a therapist I would ask you who didn't allow you to have your feelings, because certainly it's not me.
All I'm doing is expressing MY OWN feelings. Am I not allowed to do that, too?
Do I have to be quiet so that you feel you have permission to express your own feelings?
Or do I have to express my feelings in a certain way, so that you feel comfortable?
Do I have to shrink, be less expressive, less out spoken, less knowledgeable, less opinionated, less able to articulate my thoughts so that you can feel safe to say what you feel?
Do I have to not have an opinion for you to feel safe to have your opinion?
Or isn't it the truth that we both can say exactly what I feel, and neither need feel that they cannot speak or must be quiet for the other?
When I express my thoughts and feelings, it is not to attack you and make you less than, it is to just share how I feel; it is not to "Get" you to think like me, to recruit you, to make you change your mind, it is just to say hmmmmm, I've heard your thought, here is what I think: LET'S COMPARE THEM AND SEE WHAT WE COME UP WITH.
That to me is a conversation, flowing back and forth, the ideas, the thoughts, the feelings, and reaching new conclusions, forming new ideas, gaining deeper understanding.
No one person need stop contributing to the conversation for the other to feel safe to speak, both are invited to continue to contribute until there is mutual understanding.
The reason I haven't addressed this part of your argument is because I think it's kinda of crazy for anyone to think I have any power or influence over another, enough to say that it's not "okay" for them to think however they want to think!!!
I have no ability to "make" anyone think what I want!!!!
What I will not say is it is okay to be judgemental, if I feel/think a certain kind of behavior is judgmental. That's my opinion, and I have the right to say that.
See here is where people get onto shaky grounds, because you cannot say: Leave me room to have my own thoughts, if by my expressing my thoughts, it makes you feel I am taking away from your room to have your thoughts.
It sounds like what you're really saying is Sabine, be quiet, so I can feel comfortable enough to express my thoughts.
Is that what you mean?
You said you "let me" think about them what you want. How exactly did you "let me". I have the right to think whatever I want. You have no power over me to stop me or start me.
If you tell me by expressing my thoughts, I am telling you that you don't have room to express your thoughts now, who is NOT being left room to have their thoughts?
ME!
I have every right to ask, Cherry, why are you making excuses for Charles if that's what I think you're doing. You have every right to counter,No, I don't believe I am and to tell me why.
If we respect each other, we should be able to give room to both of us to say how we feel, to hear and listen to one another, neither needing the other to change or be silent for the other. And if we respect each other, we will both try to understand what/where the other person is coming from.
That is what Charles and Yazmeen will NOT DO. That is why their conflict escalated into such drama. That is where you and I are different.
Did I ever tell you to NOT say what you felt? I just challenged the thoughts and asked you to explain them, and also told you what I, in my own self, felt about them.
You of course, are free to do the same. And haven't you?
So why do you feel you were not allowed room to say how you think/feel?
Isn't it because you DIDN'T LIKE what I had to say, and want me to STOP saying it?
That's a question -- I'd like to really know the answer.
Who is being told there is no room for their feelings/thoughts?
_________________________________________________
This was my dream. I actually am interested to hear what you think about it, remember the dream is ABOUT ME ( I don't want you to even for one moment think it's about you!!!!)
OMG, but I had such a nightmare last night! As usual, my nightmares always involve my family. Did I mention that my mother visited me this weekend?
Well, anyway, in it, my sister who I do not speak to, was getting married to this man I’ve never met. All of my siblings were at my house including my mother planning the elaborate wedding. I felt like an outsider and unwanted as they made plans that did not include me, and also using my things, my house and my stuff. They were in the process of unplugging my DVD/VCR and taking my diamond earrings when I said, what in God’s name do you think you’re doing.
I was running around with my niece getting her hair done while they were stripping my house of all the things they would “need”. The dream then morphs and I’m in another place, like a desolate, abandoned house and I’m with a bunch of children, no older then 5, some as young as 2, and my niece, we are with a man, and he’s like our guide. He’s in the boiler room of the house, banging on the pipes, and I have a feeling that everything is going to blow and I’m trying to warn him.
He’s not listening to me. As the pipes hiss and steam and I am holding my breath, this little girl comes from underneath the house — we’re in basement, the boiler room, and she comes from a place underneath there!!!!!
She has on a white, long dress. The children that I came with are outside playing. The little girl tells me to be careful because HE is down there and HE is going to come up. The man who is our guide ignores that.
So then a tall man comes up, and he is holding a bible. Dressed in all white, he is very lean and has a pompass look about him. He is followed by a woman, his wife, and a number of other women, who are members of his church. They seemed very intimidated and almost scared, but conniving and manipulative too.
Then up come the many children, but these children are not “normal, good children”, and I know in my heart that they are going to try to kidnap the children I am with, recruit them, brainwash them, and take them with them back wherever they come from.
So starts a struggle to escape. And we’re running down the street and I tell the children to run — this is when I discover that the house we
are in is actually the house that I grew up in. We’re running and I know there’s a police precinct up ahead, but I can’t find it. I tell them to jump over the gate of the house which is surprisingly low and easy to jump over!
As I’m running the preacher man with the bible hijacks an ambulance and drives it back down back the way we came, in the opposite direction of traffic. He is going to get those children!
I spot a fire truck, and tell the firefighters what is happening and they take off down the road to stop the man, which they do.
Then the dream morphs again, and I am in a house with three detectives, they are interrogating the man who took my diamonds and my DVD/DVR and my stuff for my sister’s weddings. They are looking around the house for the diamonds and find them camouflaged as jewels on tiny shoes in a doll house.
He gives them to me and I hide them in my mouth. Then he continues interrogating the man about other things he took. He ends up on the floor, and they are kicking him and asking him over and over what he did with them.
While they are doing so, I bite down on the diamonds in my mouth and they crack easily. I point out to one of the detectives that the diamonds they found are not real.
He pulls out a black velvet bag and says, Oh, I have the real ones, smiles and says to the guy he was kicking, where’s the other stuff — maybe we can cut a deal.
The man they were kicking, the thief smiles too, because he knows, and now I know, that the cops are crooked and they will negotiate with him and he’s in no danger.
I am standing there with my mouth open, knowing I’ve been fooled once again.
OMG, we were writing at the same time!!!
That's great but DON'T BEAT YOURSELF UP ABOUT IT!!!!! There's a REASON you have those feelings, that I would say is my most important thing, to find out why you feel/think that way or do that, so you can find a different way to meet whatever need or desire is trying to be fulfilled.
The difference is not in the judementalness itself, but in how you react to it.
Charles has embraced it, accepted it, approved it and feels comfortable with it, it seems. Charles won't even look at it and question if it's wrong.
You have chosen not to. You have looked at it and said, No, I don't like this. I want to change it It's a very beautiful quality, Cherry, to be able to self-reflect, not very many people can do that.
Is it too late for Charles? Hmmm, God has a way of making life knock you off your high horse, maybe this is it for him!
And thank you for hanging in there and having the conversation -- like you said, and on my side too, I admit it, it's draining. but I think it's worth it.
Oh, we posted at the same time.
Ok, now I understand why you say that about Charles. I didn't before, I really didn't understand that time played such a huge role for you when you said
and
Thank you! It's by Adrian Grant? Oh, then I think I've read it before but I will read it again, I can use some beautiful, positive energy.
And thank you very much for what you said above the article, I really appreciate that I can talk to you and you take the time to answer and comment, I honestly didn't expect that this site would ever be a place where I could do that.
You know, I actually believe I was meant to finally end up here. I had been looking for help or at least somebody to talk to about the whole mess before and just after I read Charles's Twitter comments on Michael (about MSQ 2001 and some other stuff) and fell particularly deeply back into my old pattern, our Debbie conversation began which then lead into something I was looking for, an opportunity to talk about everything. It is draining but you are right, it's also worth it.
Off to bed now, good night!
Well, I haven't really looked at the dream yet, 'cause it's really deep, to me, but I'll tell you a little of what I think it means at the end.
Looks like I mixed did and do, and then didn't emphasized do until later when I was tripping over myself trying to explain
, it's partly my fault then. If i wrote do at first, that's what you read, that would have stuck in your mind. I'm sorry! :kissing:
I'm so relieved -- I really wanted you to understand that. I'm happy you can now and sorry, again, for whatever part I played in the misunderstanding!
I'm sorry you felt that way. No, I didn't mean that at all.
No, nooooo. Why would I want to do that? That's mean!!!! I didn't WANT TO agree with what you said, but only because it's very hard for me to have compassion for someone who uses another. Remember in the end I told you it was probably true all that you said. I just felt it didn't matter (that's me being uncompassionate because of course it matters! )
That's okay. Online communication sucks, and conversations can SEEM like they're going on and on, because everything is THERE and you look at the paragraphs and go, OMG! But in real life, this would have been a fifteen minute conversation, and I could say, let's get a coffee -
Well, it didn't blind me, but definitely distorts my view, and I have to kind a step back and rub my eyes for me to see clearly but it only lasts a minute
Well, I'm sorry about that because I don't want to make anyone feel "pressured" to talk -- I just like talking and I hardly ever feel insecure about my opinion.
Hmmm, maybe the fear is that it will become an argument? I think an argument is when you are calling names and saying to another person, for instance, you're so stupid, ugly, blah, blah. To me when you're discussing differences in thoughts/opinions, that's a debate.
I don't have a problem having even a heated debate, but a mutual understanding could be, wow, I understand your point, and why you think like that, but I don't agree.
Well, don't worry about it. Just FYI, it's not the part of not wanting to argue -- it's the part when you said, You won't let me think this; or you won't leave me room to say how I feel. I mean, how could I be doing that? In this medium, you'd only get that feeling from the words I'd express, so to me the message is, Don't express yourself. Be quiet.
Thanks for saying that. But here's the problem right, if you say had a boyfriend or good friend or whoever, and you have a conversation, and feel there's nothing more to say or that an arguments coming and you don't want to have it, but the other person has more to say, then what?
Well, like I said in the begining, I didn't fully look at it closely. But here is what I know.
The stripping of my stuff from the house is how my family I felt stripped me of what made me ME -- my thoughts, my opinions, my feelings. They wouldn't let me have them. I had to be quiet or agree with them, or ELSE I got beat or punished. They needed me to never say a word about what they were doing or have an opinion about it. So that's what our conversation brought up, those feelings, and that's what was happening in that part of the dream.
Um, the kids in the dream that I'm trying to protect are me, all of them are me! Different parts of me.
The little girl who comes up out of the ground is me, a deep, deep, deep part of my subconscious, warning me.
Um the feeling that the house was going to blow, is the feeling that if I look at these deep feelings that are coming up, I will lose it, that it will be too much; that it's too dangerous.
The man who is guiding me is also me, he is (I am) down in the basement (in my deep self conscious) messing around in dangerous territory.
Um, the man who comes up out of the cellar, with his wife and the "bad" children. I don't know who those people are -- maybe repressed memories, because I have memories of my past that I cannot recall. So maybe that. I'm not sure.
Um, in the house the detectives I dont' know. Maybe my fear of opening up to someone and then having them not be who I think they are, having them be out to get me instead of serving my interest -- having them betray me -- that's happened to me a bunch of times! That might have come up in the conversation, because my fear would be in opening up here, I had left myself vulnerable, and I could be betrayed.
So that's pretty much it. You'lll probably read this later -- and I hope sleep very well tongiht!!!!
I do believe we all end up where we do for a reason! So glad you're here and we're having these conversations!!!
Hey Sabine!
Before I came here I really didn't see it that way at all! I truly felt horrible about everything. Now though, and that started when we had the other conversation some weeks ago, I can look at it that way and it gives me a great deal of comfort. I mean, of course I have to work on it but I realize that I am not a bad person (I felt that way because it seemed that nobody else I knew ever seemed to shared my critical thoughts about Michael and after a while I thought myself, okay, then something has to be wrong with ME and not him but I still couldn't stop being angry at him and there also was voice in me that told me, no, you're right about this, even though nobody agrees with you. Sometimes it was comforting to heart that voice and other times I wanted it to shut up because it wasn't helping me at all). And now, when I'm being too strict with Michael and myself again, I know where it's coming from. Also, understanding your issue helped me understand mine. We get triggered by certain behavior of other people even though we don't even really know them, because it reminds of somebody else that we know very well, that hurt us with their behavior a great deal, parents, friends, lovers...
I mean, I was aware that the whole thing had to have something to do with my father but for a long, long time I thought that working on my "Michael issue" and working on the issues with my father were two completely different things and I thought I could "cure" myself from my sometimes negative thoughts about Michael if only I try hard enough. I tried but they always came back at one point or another, usually when I read or heard something that involved drugs. But the thing was that I didn't want to face my own feelings about my dad because they hurt me, I wanted to let go and just forget about it all but at the same time I felt that if I stop being angry with him, he will get away with what he did and I couldn't allow that, that would be sooo unfair. So, on the surface I managed to hold myself together and pretend all was more or less good but whenever I dared to look deeper I knew that I was still hurting and I wasn't "over" anything as much as I wished to be. And that's why the Michael issue came back again and again, too. I wasn't cured, I was just repressing it in order to feel good about him again because being angry at him felt horrible.
So, I see that now and that's why I really have to say thank you!
Some days ago my father called me and while I was just crying on my end, he told me that he knew how he had hurt me with his behavior and also how he had ruined his own life with it. He said to me he felt that he would never be completely happy again because of what he did to me and my sister. He said he knew how I was feeling alone and feeling that I don't have a father. He also said he knew that my opinion of him is very low and so in a way he is afraid of me because he knows I'm right about being angry at him. He said I'm actually very strong and he wants us to at least be friends who can talk and even meet every now and then. And when for him the time is right he will talk to me and my sister about it all but he himself needs to feel that he is ready for that and as of now, he isn't.
I couldn't even speak, I just cried because for the first time in years I felt understood by him without even saying anything. I always thought he didn't even know or care how by ruining his life he hurt me, too. But in that moment he showed me that at least intellectually, he had gotten what my problem was, he was aware of it.
So, for the rest of the day I felt good, I cried, but I was almost happy. But as more days passed I felt things are nowhere near of being solved, forgiven and forgotten now just because of this one call. So I asked myself, what's the matter, is there something else? And I came to the conclusion that actually my mother and her input on the situation with my dad over the years might play quite a big role in all of this, too. I have to think about that some more, though...
I will get back to your last post tomorrow, I've got a terrible headache and my sister is staying at my place. She has to get up very early in the morning so I'm going to bet with her early.
Bye! :kissing:
Hi Sabine, it's very early here, I'm going to back to bed. Are you still up?
That's okay, it doesn't matter now, I finally got your point and agree. I try to look at it like this: If I were to become famous now, over night, and people would want to know everything about my past and follow my every move for the rest of my life, I'm sure at some point they would write something about me and my decisions/actions that, if you're not in the situation yourself, looks irresponsible, naive, stupid, mean, reckless or whatever to the outside world, to people who look at me and my life from the outside, people who don't know all the circumstances and details. So, I think I know as much about Michael as any fan but that doesn't mean I know everything or I know him the way he really was or I can judge his behavior in a certain situation because there's no way I can know all about it. And that's what I want to keep in mind. Whenever I read or hear that he took this and that kind of medication, looking at it from outside it makes me cringe, it makes me sad and yes, it makes me angry even but for him, from his POV and that's the only one he had, it felt alright for him, he felt he needed it. And I can understand why he felt the need after all he'd been through. He's the one who had to deal with his life and even though trying to medicate your pain away is, objectively speaking, not a good idea, it's understandable and comprehensible. He was such a good person and only looking for a way to survive it all. I wish he could have found another way and that will never change but I never walked in shoes so this is easier said than done.
And I, as much as I love Michael and hate what he was put through, sometimes can't have compassion for him because the way he sometimes handled his problems reminds me of the way my father did that. My father never was this typical kind of strong father figure for me at all. So, I didn't want Michael to fill that whole but when I saw some similarities between his behavior sometimes and that of my dad I went oh hale naw, not him, too! What's wrong with you guys? I mean I love him and I think I have compassion for him but it has its limits, not because I consciously decide that it has to have, it just does because of my own emotional baggage. Your compassion for him doesn't because, as you explained to me, none of his behavior triggered something for you.
I know!!
I mean, on the one hand , as we said, it's fun to debate and see what kind of ideas and arguments the other comes up with but online it can go on and on because you can't directly address what the other one says, you can't hear their voice and so on.
Yeah, okay, that's true. And it happenend I think, I can understand your opinion about Debbie and Charles for exmaple but I don't agree, at least not with everything you said, about some things you were right though.
I get why this would be the message you get. Sorry! I don't want you to be quiet or express yourself, I want to know what you think. Besides, how would we converse if it was me who does all the talking?
That would get boring really quick. So, before I thought, Sabine tries to slam my opinion because she doesn't agree with it and now I know that this is not your intention at all so it was my fault thinking that.
I think we talked about this before, right? I really don't know. I want the other one to feel that he/she can talk to me but I also feel that I have to listen to my own needs in that moment. So, it's difficult, I don't have an answer for that.
About your dream...well, what you say makes perfect sense to me, really interesting to see what you come up with yourself abut it. I guess you looked into the subject of dream interpretation quite thoroughly, right? I mean, I never can come up with such explanations for my own dreams but maybe I should look into it, too, to learn more about myself. It's really fascinating.
So, gee, our conversation brought up the feeling that you are not allowed to say anything or have an opinion.
No, no, noooo! I mean, as you said, how can any one of us "allow" the other to have an opinon or to express it...
I hope you sleep very well tonight, indeed!
Sweet dreams.
Hi, OMG, I deleted the first part of my comment Cherry!!! What did I say.
Okay I cam earlier to answer you but I got distracted and I didn't want to answer on the run, so I saved it until later, and then I missed you but I'm back
You know I am so happy that we were able t have this conversation and you have taken something from it and used it in a positive way for your own growth.
When I read about your Dad and the conversation you had with him, I had tears in my eyes because I know that must have been a healing conversation for you, to hear him own up to his mistakes and acknowledge that he's hurt you.
God, my mother will never do that. She told me point blank if she ever does anything wrong she doesn't know it. And girl, she LIES.
Constantly! She will say one thing and in the next breath say the opposite and then deny saying the first thing!!!! IT is impossible to have an honest open conversation with that woman!!!!
It's always good to know that we are not alone with our thoughts and feelings. That's why I value the conversations that we are having. Of course you're not bad!!!!!
((((((((((((((((((Cherry ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
:kissing:
You are really getting it girl!!! Well let me give you some advice from me to you, print this out and keep it, because in a couple of weeks or whatever, when you're triggered, you will forget EVERYTHING --
Well a lot of it. That's the way it works, because intellectual knowledge can't heal emotional wounds, the feelings have to be felt and processed to be understood.
So we did it together right here. I was feeling kinda down when we were struggling w/ each other, and I know you were upset, too feeling misunderstood, but we hung in there and now look you feel so much better, and I have that great/awful dream which I will have a wonderful time discussing with my therapist!
That last line, wow, I think you've got something there. I mean i was always able to be very angry at my mother but never my father -- I mean I just didn't have any feelings about him; I was numb. In many ways I still am. I'm no longer angry at my mother but I still have no feelings for my DAd. LIke Michael, I feel that I don't know him at all; he feels like a stranger.
I really wish you had someone that you could professionally talk to abut this, Cherry.
I'm so happy for you! I know this was something you were really struggling with and it was bothering you; I know you must feel so much lighter to have this understanding, and something you said earlier, that once you understood me and where I as coming from with my struggle to have compassion for someone I see as a user, it helped you understand yourself.
That's the gift of compassion. When we give it to another, we also become more able to understand our ownself. I know this, but it's so hard when you're hurting and triggered.
I want to kick Charles under a bus
Yes, you are understanding me perfectly. It's true, when someone reminds us of someone close to us who hurt us, and we haven't healed, we can't see them clearly. We see them through our emotions.
No, I'm not trying to slam your opinion at all. I'm a Leo, and express myself passionately, but I laugh he loudest when I'm wrong, believe me!!!! And I have no problem admitting I'm wrong. It's not big deal to me.
I think in that instance, if you care for the other, you compromise. Not becoming a door mat mind you, but if it's important to the other person, you should hear them out, even if you say, I have nothing to say really.
Yes, I did study dream interpretation a bit, but more of it is what feels true to me, because I know what my issues are, and what I struggle with. Plus my Mom was here with me, and she does what she always do, you know lies, etc - she always triggers me. But she does something else too that pisses me off. The woman is 72 years old, and I will wake up in the morning and she will be GONE! No note, nothing. She's not feeble or anything -- if you saw her you'd think she was 50, but she just disappears on me. I don't know why she does that. She said it was because my kids weren't around. She said, I came to see them not you. I don't want to see you.
That's my mom. Then she had the nerve to ask me if I was mad.
Yeah, that's my issue girl. In my home growing up, she would hit you in the head with a hammer if you said something she didn't agree with. You better change your opinion back real fast! I'm not lying!
We learned very early on not to say nothing, well I should say everyone else learned to not say nothing or agree - soon they were thinking like her too. I just kept saying, Why can't I say what I feel and getting hit in the head with a hammer!
After a while I thought well, maybe what I feel IS wrong
That was the road down to crazyville, and I had to make a Uturn really quick before I lost my mind!!!! Thank God I moved out when I was 18!!!!!!!!!
Sorry I missed you -- I'll check back later on today
Hi Sabine!
I hope I got all the quotes right.
It was healing in that moment, very much so but there's still a lot of work ahead of me. I'm leaving for Belgium in 3 weeks but I consider getting "professional help" when I get back.
Wow, speaking of draining, huh? I can only guess how horrible this must have been for you...I get along really well with my mom, we have a good realationship and I couldn't imagine it any other way. So let me give you a big hug right now! :kissing:
(((((((((((((((((( Sabine ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Same here.
Only sometimes.
Not but honestly, as much as I agree with you about the fact that, if you want to understand MIchael, you have to look at things through his eyes, I still think that it's a good thing to be able to look at things and situations from all kinds positions or at least try to do that, it's not easy. And the reason that I look at Michael's life from his children's perspective for example is that I'm pretty sure someday they will be angry with him themselves, even though they love him very much, and I will be able to understand it, also because I am in a similar situation. I love my father, when I was litle I adored him and felt truly loved by him myself but even as a kid I instinctively knew when someting was wrong and he couldn't take care of me as much as I wanted and needed him to. And I was always worried sick about him. His children might or might not have had comparable feelings or will have them in the future and if they do I won't be mad at them for saying something that many othe fans are not going to be happy to hear...
Amen to that. I mean, as I said, intellectually, I was aware of everything, BUT...
Yes, I felt kinda down, too, I thought God, how did this happen? But yes, I'm feeling better now...till the next time!
I talked about this with my mother a few weeks ago, how I felt about her input on what my father did whenever I told her that called or didn't call, send me money or didn't send me money...I mean, she went through her own ordeal with him and I can understand her opinion about him and his behavior very well. My mother saved my dad from all the trouble he got himself into and that's what she was doing for more than 15 years. My father lied about having a driver's license, took my mom's new car, crashed it and she had to pay all the bills. My father came here from Africa with a scholarship but once was here he became lazy so that at on point they stopped giving him money for his studies here. Who let him live in her apartment, who had to earn a living for the both of them, my mom!! My father lied to her, fooled her, manipulated her and even cheated on her but it took her 15 years to get rid of him. She loved him but I doubt he ever really did. And the reason she was so attracted to him was her relationship with her father who was the complete opposite of mine, cold, strickt, emotionally unavailable, he would beat her sometimes and lock her up in the basement. So when she met my father she fell in love with him for being funny, open and generous. I mean, he has his qualities, too and, as a matter of fact, they remind me of Michael's qualities, too sometimes...
So, I get where my mom's input is coming from but she always told me to stop having compassion for my father, to just let go, to let him suffer until he learns his lessons and so on. Whenever I cried because of him she wouldn't really comfort me, she would just rail at his behavior during their marriage and tell me what I should do in order to feel better but what she was really telling me was what SHE should have done in their relationship or wished she would have done much earlier....but she stayed and got caught up in his mess way too much. She sees that now and cannot understand why it she was so blind. But I was just a kid, I didn't know all this back then and she didn't understand that I, as his daugther, look at things differently and just needed comforting without her bashing him all the time.
Wow, re-reading what I just wrote I really think I should get help.
Why do you think is that? You didn't have the feeling that he was trying to tell you you can't ever express your opinion or that he was a user?
I know you do!
I mean, it IS hard to have compassion then! In that moment you probably can't have it at all but later on, when you've calmed down a bit it comes back, slowly, even reluctantly sometimes...
Totally! I'm going to have to print this out, too.
Aaaw, I'm glad you feel it is a different experience with me, after all!!! I'm really sorry you had to go through all of that! :kissing:
Yes, find a way so that both feel taken seriously and understood. On the other hand, it might not be that easy if the other one wants me to comment on what they just said and I feel that every word is one too much...it really depends on the situation. Usually I always have something to say.
Hi Cherry!!!!
OMG, for real!!! Yay!!!
Awww,
Thank you!!! That's the kind of relationship I have with my daughter, so I've broken the cycle!!!!
You know, Cherry, you can actually do both!!!!
Yes, of course, to understand the children, you have to look at things from their perspective, and it is worthy and right to do that, because their feelings, their perspective matters and counts! No one person should be dismissed for another. No one person's feelings is more important than the other. Of course if someone is hurting, their feelings at the point in time take priority, but one should always go back and make sure everyone else involved is okay, and doesn't feel neglected or unheard or unimportant, and yes, it is hard. Especially in big families, especially when a parent has issues, but it's very important to the emotional well being of any adult to grow up feeling heard, respected and considered. Michael spoke about that!!!!!! 
He knew.
Well, one of the worst things a parent can do to a child is force the child to parent them. You don't even have to lift a hand to hit the child or scream at them one time, to fVck 'em up if you're doing that. Children cannot deal with the responsibility of caring for an adult. it leaves them with immense feelings of anger and then shame and guilt for being angry. Sound familiar?
Well let me tell you, that's a clue that you are being triggered, when all of a sudden you're having strong emotions that seem out of proportion to what is going on and you don't know how you got to that point in the conversation, you better believe, you're being triggered!!!
I mean, this is common, we all do that. But that's it right there! Let me tell you, I understand your mother. She wants you to be stronger than her, but denying our feelings doesn't make us strong. I remember an ex-friend bought my daughter a birthday gift, but for some strange reason she wouldn't bring it to her, she wanted me to pick it up -- and she lived just 20 minutes away by bus. So I refused because this was years of her neglecting me and my children. In fact that was the first year she even bought a gift, only because I asked her to. So my daughter wanted the gift, and I told her: Listen to me, you don't want anything that a person doesn't want to give you!!!!
See the difference, one behavior says your feelings are important and they matter. The other says, your feelings don't matter in fact, the don't even exist and you shouldn't have them.
It sounds like your Dad put your Mom through hell and my heart goes out to her… she probably just wants you to stop suffering over him, but it won't happen by you denying how you feel, that's for sure. It's probably impossible for you not to have hurt over how your father has treated you -- you'd have to be inhuman.
You should understand this, considering how your mother chose your father because of her relationship with her Dad. It's very important that you get help, so that you won't repeat the cycle. Don't tell yourself that you're too smart or you know too much. Emotions have zero to do with intellect. There's a lot of brilliant women in fVcked up relationships that can't leave.
Why? Because he did something to me that I repressed the memory of.
I think you can understand what I mean w/o me saying the words. He says it never happened, my whole family says it did. I have no memory. It's complicated.
Because I still say Martin better not ever let me catch him on a dark corner!!!
You're welcome and Thank you! That means a lot!
I think if you have something to say, that means the conversation needs to continue
Well, only for the weekend. My mother and I have to measure our visits -- we get on each other's nerves. But you know what, she's hilarious,
and she tells the BEST stories. I think they're half lies -- it's about her past, and she lies about things I know are true. But I was thinking this weekend, I must get my story telling ability from her. She knows how to time it, what information to give -- she's the best at that. I guess to tell a fictional story, you gotta know how to lie, huh?
My mom is super nice to the grandkids -- I have told my kids all about her, so she doesnt get to do emotional damage on them, but I've watched her play mind games with my neice and nephews. But the truth is my sisters and brothers are just as crazy as she is.
Well, in my house it was physical, emotional and mental abuse, yes terror. But you know what happens? The mind adapts to its environment. I guess that's why I like to study people. i wanted to understand why my parents were they way there were.
My mom? Well she told me once, You kids have no respect!!!!! I ask you to do something and you have the nerve to complain. My mother, I couldn't even walk passed her w/o cringing. She'd just haul off and slap me or tell me, You're so ugly, out of the blue. If I didn't do what she told me, she would knock me out!!!!"
She was trying to explain to us that her mother didn't take not shit from no kids!!! She was telling me that we had it easy.
See Cherrry, that's how your mind adapts!
Sooooorry Sabine, but I'm
Will get back to this in the morning, 'kay?
:kissing:
Huh what? I'm in the Valley right now
Sure thing, hon
I see nobody else posetd on this topic in a looong time so sorry for digging it out again guys but I owe Sabine an answer big time so I hope you all unsubscribed from getting comments if you haven't done so by now.
Sabine, I'm so sorry for never having come back to this topic when I said I would!!!
:kissing:
Yes and no. With me and my family it was rather like I always felt out of myself that I had to take care/parent my father, he didn’t really force me to. But yes, I do feel anger now that he couldn’t be a father to me and that I often had to think and act more maturely than he did when I was just a child/teenager. Or maybe it’s not even anger but looking at how it was and just feeling really really sad about it.
How funny that those words you wrote two months ago are applying again right now. forget everything I might have said about not being triggered or being over anything juts because we made up in the end, looks like I sooo wasn’t.
I know you did but just as with the other writer who was my friend…I didn’t see the parallel, that’s the honest truth! I mean I told you I never looked at all this stuff so thoroughly or talked about it with somebody, really.
I mean, I can totally understand you said that to your daughter because of the way YOU felt about this other person!!! It’s not easy to forget or ignore that! So in that, I can totally understand my mom, too, you know, WHY she did it, I get that. It’s like…I don’t know, there’s somebody you don’t really like, like me and my racist roommate for example and the Italian guy living next to us. I told him about what my roommate had written on her facebook and he said it was racist, too but then last night he made out with her and I thought man, what are you doing???? But of course, she was always nice to him and so I can’t go to him now and say “You don’t want to be friends with somebody who is racist” because that’s what she did to ME and not to him…
I know! My mom was not stupid but she couldn’t leave! She chose my father because he was the complete opposite of my dad and gave her something her dad never gave her. I would actually want a man like my father in terms of his funny, generous and endearing personality but a MAN not a boy in a man’s body because that’s what my father is in many ways, a child. And I don’t know how to handle that, really.
This is the answer to the pointed question I asked you , that you mentioned in your last email,right? I’m so sorry I just left you standing there with it, really!
:shocked: 
It’s what La Toya said Joseph did to her, isn’t it? And he, your father, just wants you to pretend like it never happened. I mean, you don’t remember it but that’s not the point! Is he crazy? How can he expect that from you?? Okay, he says it never happened but why then does your whole family say it did? Your mother, too? Your parents aren’t together anymore, are they? When did that happen, how old were you? Repressed memory, does that mean that it was so horrible that your mind had to forget it, otherwise…what? If you want to elaborate on “it’s complicated”, I’m here to listen.
If it means what I think it does…oh my God, that’s awful and horrible!
:woot:
I would soooo want to see what you would do to him! Seriously, just the mention of this creature’s name… 
When I think of his horrible voice and his horrible accent I want to vomit all over my keybord!
That’s kind of sweet to hear you say that about her.
Your story telling ability is amazing! 
Really? What kind of a relationship do your sisters have with their kids? And why were you the only one who could break the cycle? Was that because you went to therapy?
My mom?Well she told me once, You kids have no respect!!!!!I ask you to do something and you have the nerve to complain.My mother, I couldn’t even walk passed her w/o cringing.She’d just haul off and slap me or tell me, You’re so ugly, out of the blue.If I didn’t do what she told me, she would knock me out!!!!
Is she some kind of female version of Joseph or what???? :shocked:
Sorry, I’m serious because this reminds me so much of what Michael always said!!
You said you wanted to understand why your parents were the way they were. Did you succeed? What is it about them???
You are too sweet to come back and revisit this topic
I have to think about if I want to respond, okay Cherry. I have to search how I feel, because crazy as it sounds, now I don't feel comfortable getting into it all. I know you understand
Okay, yes I understand, you don't have to. I just wanted to show you I am sorry, I really mean it.
